Embracing Change: Career Risks and Rewards

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Welcome back to How I Met Your Data, the show where we stop pretending data

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is simple and start getting real about what it takes to work with it.

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We've been in the data trenches, and now we're here as your companions in this

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ever-evolving world where the community is as diverse as the stories we share.

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From hands-on practitioners to the rapidly shifting tech, we're bringing you

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the insights, strategies, and sometimes chaos that shape the way data really works.

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Whether you're here for fresh ideas, a spark of inspiration,

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or just some good old-fashioned data banter, you're in the right place.

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So grab a coffee, get comfy, and let's dive in.

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Welcome. Today I have with me friends of mine from different eras in my life,

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but I'm so excited to have both of you here to talk about navigating changes

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in your careers, talking to each of you individually about what you've been

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experiencing, I have a thought.

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What if the biggest career risk is actually staying exactly where you are? What do you think?

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Absolutely. Well, I can introduce myself first. I am Karen Meppen and a longtime

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friend and fan of you, Anjali, as well.

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So I'm excited to partner with you in these podcasts.

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I originally started off in finance.

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And I found myself spending a lot more time automating or making a lot of my

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processes as a grunt at JP Morgan Chase,

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improving those processes to where I felt more focused on the technology and

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problem solving and creating efficiencies than evaluating the assets that I was working on.

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And so I ended up getting a job offer to go out to Las Vegas,

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really took on a job working as a project manager to overhaul very custom written

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COBOL applications that handle hard money lending within the Southern Nevada area.

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It really took off from there and have really been focusing on how to connect

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business needs and data ever since in so many different ways.

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I half joke that I'm a data therapist because I need to come together with the

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tech folks in technology, the business, those who are in privacy.

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Legal obligations, cybersecurity, everyone has to come together to make a business solution work.

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And that's really what I've been doing for the majority of my career.

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And so I have plenty of experience leading data and analytics engagements,

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but I'm also a fellow of information privacy, definitely have cut my teeth in cybersecurity.

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And really where that all comes together is through data governance and data

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strategy to bring it all together to deliver what the business needs.

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And so I've been doing that for well over 20 years and had the benefit of working

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with you when we were at Slalom and have worked through ever since to where

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right now I'm focusing on building out my own business.

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Karen, you're, you're, we'll hear a lot of parallels, I think,

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between what, what Karen and I will say.

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So maybe to start, you know, Anjali, to answer your question,

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yes, there is, is risk in staying where you are and staying in one place.

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And, and hopefully as, as we talk, you'll see some of that theme.

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I remember, you know, as I was kind of going through a transition,

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which I'll speak about, you know, just saying to my husband,

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you know, why is this set of circumstances happening? Why is this going on?

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And after hearing me complain for many, many months, he turned and looked at

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me and said, because you're not where you're supposed to be.

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And it was like a ton of bricks hitting me in the face.

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And whether, you know, whatever your belief system is, it was like,

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there is some message that the universe is sending me and I have not been listening.

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And it finally forced me to listen.

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So as an introduction, my name is Angela Hopkins. I tell people that if you,

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if I wanted to describe myself, I would tell you that I was a scientist.

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That's who I am in my head.

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Like all good minority children who are interested in health care,

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I was supposed to go be a doctor.

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And the idea of four years of medical school and just treating kind of patient

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by patient was not interesting to me.

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So I took a detour into public health. And that answered for me what was really curiosity.

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How do I not look at, and you can see kind of the theme of data and analytics already starting.

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I really wanted to look at the macro level of problem. Why? You know,

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why people get sick? Why is this happening?

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Why, you know, do the insights and data on the surface not really tell us the whole story?

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So my background's in public health with a focus of epidemiology and biostatistics.

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I've spent 20 years in the biopharmaceutical industry in various roles across

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R&D, commercial, finance, mostly supporting the intersection of data,

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strategy, insights, and analytics.

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Similar to Karen, I like to tell people that 10% of my job is analytics and

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probably 90% is therapy.

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But that's really where I have found my sweet spot is in being technical enough

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that I could understand, you know, the people who really geek out over numbers.

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But my sweet spot is really what do numbers tell us and what's that insight

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and being able to tell a cohesive story, a compelling story that you can make out of that data.

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So that's really how my career has progressed.

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And, you know, just, I think, being a problem solver. My brain naturally skews

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towards, well, what is information telling me?

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I fundamentally believe that you can't solve a problem that you don't understand.

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So that's just how my brain worked. And for two, it is for me,

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it turned into almost 20-year career.

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You know, I love both of your career journeys. I think they're both unique and

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telling in really different ways.

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But now, as we think about looking past the rearview mirror and actually looking forward.

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What has really started your journey on moving to a different role within your careers?

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Sure. Well, and I didn't originally circle back to your original question of

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the consequence of staying where you are.

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And that I do think as much as there's opportunity costs, I do think that that's

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something as it relates to looking

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at the data and being data driven to understand what's best for you.

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You really have to be very, I think, self-aware.

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And similarly, to read the room, which are two different skills for sure that

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you have to blend together to make sure that you are doing what's best for you

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and also understanding what's needed from you from your.

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Your employer, but also the teams that you're working on and the projects that need you.

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And so for sure, that's a good pivot to talking about where I am today and really

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understanding what I'm seeing in the market and trying to create opportunities

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for myself and having the timidity to do it.

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I think it's one thing to say, you know, I'm going to do this,

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but then it's another thing following through.

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There's a lot of folks with great ideas, but there's not a lot that are actually

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transitioning it to reality.

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I needed to take a step back and think, well, what are my goals?

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Where do I want to be? And am I going to have that with my current opportunity

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or just really the opportunities that are available in the market for someone

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who's more established?

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And am I able to do more for myself working in my own business?

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Yeah, so again, similar themes to some of the things that Karen mentioned.

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I think like a lot of women, you're good at something and somebody tells you

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you're good at it and you just kind of keep doing it.

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And, you know, as someone who spent, you know, a significant portion,

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actually my whole career kind of in one company, you have tons of opportunities.

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You know, great culture, great learning.

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It was a bit of, I always tell people, I admire the folks that have their careers

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kind of totally mapped out.

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Mine was a career by accident, not by design, but much more great.

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You know, here's an opportunity. I'm curious. Let's go do that.

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Let's go do this. And that worked really, really well for a very, very long time.

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And then I think a few things converged for me. On the personal side,

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I turned 40, which is always a bit of an aha moment. I didn't have little kids anymore.

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I had big kids. And all of a sudden, I said, wait, what's happening there?

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And then my father also passed away.

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And so in the space of kind of six months, I had kind of a bunch of things that

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were happening in my life that I just, you know, really caused me to reevaluate.

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And I think for the first time, ask myself, what did I want to do?

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Not because I was good at it, not because I could, but what did I really want to do?

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And I think that that set of circumstances, along with some things that were

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happening professionally, really led me to the transition that I found myself in.

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And what's hard is when that happens, I think people say, well,

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what went wrong? You know, what happened? wrong.

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And to be honest, I don't know that anything went wrong.

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It was a choice. It was a transition that I needed to make. And maybe Anjali took it to,

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expound on your initial question. I think especially women,

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sometimes we wait until something is wrong or we think that if you are leaving

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or transitioning, it's because something is wrong instead of the possibility

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that maybe there's something else you're supposed to move towards.

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So yeah, that transition for me was really interesting and one that you and

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I spent lots of time on the golf course talking through.

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It's so funny because I feel like, especially as we see and hear about organizations

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that are going through reductions,

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I feel like so many of the standard standby mantras are posted out.

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This is the best thing that can happen to you.

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But as you're looking at what do you want to do with your careers?

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Are you starting to realize or see some of the truth behind those,

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I'll call it reckless optimism that is often spouted at people that are faced with a challenge?

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Yeah, and I'm happy to start. So I love what you said about toxic positivity.

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I call it the Instagram pep talk, the chat GPT, LinkedIn post of all the things

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that you're supposed to say when you go through a job in a career transition.

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And yes, all of it is true. And there are moments where you're definitely there.

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There are also moments where you're not. And I think it is equally as fair to

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say, hey, there are moments where it sucks. There are moments where you doubt.

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There are moments where you say, oh my goodness, what is happening?

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I think probably for each of us, I was someone who I think I graduated with

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my master's on a Friday, and I started my full-time job that Monday.

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I had never taken a break my entire career.

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I went from undergrad to my master's

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to my PhD, all while working full-time. So all of a sudden to have.

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A transition that on one hand, you tell yourself, this is good. You need to do this.

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This gives you some time. I want to be sensitive.

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I was lucky enough that financially, I could take that time and people would

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tell me, no, no, you should take that time. This is a gift.

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And all those things were true. At the same time, it also was hard to figure

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out what do you do in the morning?

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What do you do every day when you're used to being in back to back to back to

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back meetings, having things to talk about all day.

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And you probably have said to yourself, well, I wish I could just have,

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you know, two or three months off. It's different when you have two or three months off.

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So I think finding the balance in both of those things, if you don't let yourself

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feel the emotion, I'm probably giving you an Instagram quote now,

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you don't let yourself feel the emotion, you just bottle it up.

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And you don't want to take that with you into whatever your next opportunity is.

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So I had to let myself feel, you know, the sadness, feel the,

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you know, disappointment, feel the anxiety, and then remind myself with data

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that, you know, whatever I was forecasting in my head was probably not going to happen.

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But dousing yourself in too much positive, you know, affirmations also isn't

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the right balance to strike.

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Absolutely. Well, and that so much of what you're saying, Angelique,

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resonates with me as well.

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I'll add to it that I've received a lot of like feedback and awareness of like,

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what are my goals and what do I need to do better?

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Starting at the very beginning of my career, admittedly, I always want to make

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sure when I come to the table that I've dotted my I's and crossed my T's.

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And I'm confident in whatever it is I'm presenting or discussing.

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And also, it's a bit of a crude metaphor, but I also have usually been the one neck to choke.

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I haven't had as much confidence as I probably could have.

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What my standard is to really be confident or meet that bar is often different than everyone else.

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And that's more where I've gone through a transition in my own career to realize,

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starting to sound like an Instagram quote, I am enough. I do actually know a

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lot. I have every reason to be confident.

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And while the self-doubt has kind of driven me to explore and to learn,

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to bring me to where I am today,

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I think that's more where with my maturity, I've realized that I also have landed

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in roles where it was based on more decision makers'

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perception of who I am and my abilities that have really how I've navigated

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my career and the roles that I've had rather than me actively deciding.

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And so that was a really big point in my reflection of like, I need to decide.

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And as opposed to having kind of everything just kind of fall into place and

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follow the path set forth for me, what path am I going to set forth and how

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am I going to be successful?

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I'm going to be successful because I have to be confident and aware of what

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I'm seeing in the market. And.

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And then implement that plan. And also to your point, Angelique.

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Recognize that I'm at a different place in my life.

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I too have experienced, I've lost both of my parents and realized that you do

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need to fully experience each, like all the emotion and to push a lot of it

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down to kind of compartmentalize to get to the next day.

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And some of my, you know, for all the things going on that I am better for all

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my experiences and allowing for that.

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And I'm a lot more empathetic for everyone that I interact with.

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And also just realizing what my own needs are so that I will be more successful because of that.

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And also I'll say failure is something that I'm not saying that necessarily

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failure in my career pivot necessarily, but more as a whole,

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when we hear about entrepreneurs, they're all successful because they've failed

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many times and learn from it.

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And that failure leads to really realigning or iterating on the path to success.

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And I think that's the part that you don't see on Instagram or whatever social

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media your path you're on.

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And so as I'm learning, and that's really been part of my growth experience

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as I'm establishing my own business of what am I doing that is successful.

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The market is shifting so fast. There's so many changes that are happening literally

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every day that it's almost impossible to stay ahead of.

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But what are some of the noticeable trends that you've both experienced?

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Yeah, I think Karen and I have shared similar things that made us successful

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and that we both kind of sit a little bit in this, you know.

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Translator, integrator, you know, space, the ability to kind of speak both languages,

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both the technical side and be able to distill that into, you know,

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a presentation for a C-suite executive.

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I think one of the trends that I'm seeing is with the rush around AI.

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And look, AI is a continuum. We talk about machine learning,

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and this is just kind of the latest iteration buzzwords of where the technology

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is taking us. But it's one that we can't ignore.

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I was on a panel a few weeks ago, and someone said, AI is a train that has left the station.

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If you're not on it, you're already behind. So I do think for several years,

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folks who were in data and analytics really found maybe a sweet spot in this

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translator integrator role.

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You could speak the technical language, but you could also distill it.

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And what I'm seeing is a bit more technical shift.

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In a rush to not get left behind the AI trends, there is a push to just get

00:16:48.945 --> 00:16:51.685
things done, get the pilots out the door,

00:16:52.085 --> 00:16:55.585
gather the technical folks to just figure out, how do I do this?

00:16:55.585 --> 00:17:00.505
I think for many of us, you know, particularly who have been in leadership positions

00:17:00.505 --> 00:17:03.905
in a data analytics space, the question for us is, well, what now?

00:17:04.085 --> 00:17:06.145
What do you do next? What's sustainable?

00:17:06.545 --> 00:17:10.105
And when you are running a thousand miles an hour and, you know,

00:17:10.285 --> 00:17:15.345
organizations are really focused on not having the egg on their face of being left behind,

00:17:15.805 --> 00:17:20.405
sometimes those questions are seen as not being on board or sometimes those

00:17:20.405 --> 00:17:22.585
questions are seen as controversial.

00:17:24.285 --> 00:17:30.085
When there's a balance between getting something done and getting to proof of

00:17:30.085 --> 00:17:34.625
concept and getting there really quickly and creating the right data governance

00:17:34.625 --> 00:17:40.005
and the right infrastructure and asking the right business questions that can

00:17:40.005 --> 00:17:41.285
be solved with some of the really

00:17:41.285 --> 00:17:44.025
interesting and cool things that we're seeing could be done with AI.

00:17:44.405 --> 00:17:48.585
It also sometimes speech people say, well, you know, I need an AI project.

00:17:48.845 --> 00:17:50.925
What business problem do you have?

00:17:52.165 --> 00:17:56.745
And it feels like we are trending sometimes more. And look, we saw this happen,

00:17:56.905 --> 00:17:59.645
what, 15 years ago when big data was all the rage, right?

00:17:59.845 --> 00:18:02.585
You know, make me a data lake. A data lake with what?

00:18:03.285 --> 00:18:07.485
So, you know, I think that's probably the biggest trend I'm seeing is that,

00:18:07.585 --> 00:18:12.265
you know, I'm finding a lot of data and analytics colleagues who really were

00:18:12.265 --> 00:18:17.105
in that sweet spot and are feeling like they have to bifurcate of whether you're

00:18:17.105 --> 00:18:24.005
going into the business as the business partner or you're going back to the more technical track,

00:18:24.305 --> 00:18:27.545
I think the pendulum will swing the other way, or at least that's my hope.

00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:34.679
Absolutely. I mean, I agree. Plus one to everything you're saying and that I

00:18:34.679 --> 00:18:39.819
think there's a major disconnect between those who are the decision makers and

00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:43.119
the C-suite, let's say, and those that are the boots on the ground.

00:18:43.419 --> 00:18:48.679
And so there's very much a disconnect because there are a lot of really educated

00:18:48.679 --> 00:18:51.839
folks in the AI realm that are more like a hammer looking for a nail.

00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:57.679
And then I think there's a different pushback from those on the business domain

00:18:57.679 --> 00:19:03.299
side who I feel like they're already those established power users who have

00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:07.079
adopted AI in whatever capacity in their role.

00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.859
And now what's left is a lot of people who, even within the tech space.

00:19:12.239 --> 00:19:16.219
Who have circled the wagons and are protecting their fiefdom,

00:19:16.479 --> 00:19:18.719
protecting their role. They don't want a new job description.

00:19:18.979 --> 00:19:25.899
They don't want to learn new technology and also don't want to even talk about

00:19:25.899 --> 00:19:30.959
it because there's, I think, a major unspoken concern wherever you go of,

00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.339
is this going to automate me out of my job?

00:19:33.339 --> 00:19:37.159
If I talk to you and we're working together on this implementation,

00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:39.719
am I working my way out of a job?

00:19:40.059 --> 00:19:45.999
And so I think that kind of net effect is what I'm seeing across the board,

00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.099
where there's a lot of folks that I know that are incredible and have done really

00:19:51.099 --> 00:19:58.159
complex connecting of data and so many of the nuance and sophistication of filtering

00:19:58.159 --> 00:20:03.079
out the PHI and making sure that it's labeled and annotated and accessible to the business.

00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.059
And then they're let go and they're like, what happened?

00:20:06.439 --> 00:20:11.899
And that's happening rather consistently. And it's more a matter of like, well, I think from.

00:20:12.653 --> 00:20:16.653
A lot of the business decision makers perspective, now that everything's set up,

00:20:16.953 --> 00:20:21.573
you know, we can hire someone that's a little earlier in their career path and

00:20:21.573 --> 00:20:27.013
we can maybe outsource to an offshore team somewhere or near shore it.

00:20:27.213 --> 00:20:29.033
We'll take the hit for whatever net loss we get.

00:20:29.293 --> 00:20:35.173
I do think we're at a different arc when you talk about what AI adoption means

00:20:35.173 --> 00:20:39.133
for businesses that aren't already AI native.

00:20:39.133 --> 00:20:44.613
It feels like we just continue to perpetuate our mistakes, right?

00:20:44.713 --> 00:20:48.993
So we've accumulated tech debt because we made decisions fast.

00:20:49.153 --> 00:20:53.153
We accumulated data debt because we just needed to lift and shift our data and

00:20:53.153 --> 00:20:54.673
move to the next great thing.

00:20:54.693 --> 00:20:59.873
So it feels like we're just repeating our same mistakes again in this rush to

00:20:59.873 --> 00:21:04.653
find a nail for our AI hammer and just creating problems for ourselves in the future.

00:21:04.653 --> 00:21:10.673
It's also the fatigue that's so constant that everybody's just over it.

00:21:11.053 --> 00:21:15.133
It is. It's a change fatigue. And I think you're seeing it across the board,

00:21:15.253 --> 00:21:18.053
but definitely with folks that focus on data and analytics.

00:21:19.393 --> 00:21:23.473
And part of that, I think, then the separation that you're seeing is this tend

00:21:23.473 --> 00:21:25.213
towards just delivering a product.

00:21:25.413 --> 00:21:29.273
OK, this is what they ask for here. You can have it. I'm too tired to fight

00:21:29.273 --> 00:21:35.053
with you. I'm too tired to battle and question whether this is what you really want.

00:21:35.113 --> 00:21:40.573
So here you can have it versus, you know, the folks that are maybe being a little

00:21:40.573 --> 00:21:45.153
more thoughtful or, you know, really want to solve a problem for the long term.

00:21:45.353 --> 00:21:47.333
You know, Anjali, you hit the nail on the head.

00:21:48.073 --> 00:21:51.913
That's a tomorrow problem. You know, we have to deal with the problem that's right in front of us.

00:21:52.033 --> 00:21:54.753
And the problem that's right in front of us is deliver me whatever pilot,

00:21:54.953 --> 00:21:56.173
deliver me whatever project.

00:21:57.033 --> 00:22:01.133
And I'll deal with that other debt. I'll deal with that five years from now.

00:22:01.673 --> 00:22:05.853
I think that this is also something that disproportionately impacts women,

00:22:05.853 --> 00:22:07.573
just because historically,

00:22:07.973 --> 00:22:11.993
because of the convergence of probably our personal and professional lives,

00:22:12.013 --> 00:22:16.253
and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, we don't normally have the benefit

00:22:16.253 --> 00:22:19.593
of not thinking about the consequences of things in the long term.

00:22:19.793 --> 00:22:22.133
So that's just kind of naturally how our brains work.

00:22:22.513 --> 00:22:28.533
And so I think in particular, we're going to find there are a few and far more

00:22:28.533 --> 00:22:31.293
of us are growing in the and the data and analytics space every day,

00:22:31.473 --> 00:22:33.033
but I think you're going to find,

00:22:33.613 --> 00:22:39.053
just a little bit of the practical approach that women take, have a tendency to take.

00:22:39.975 --> 00:22:43.175
Taking a little bit of a hit in this environment because, you know,

00:22:43.255 --> 00:22:48.935
our brains and how we think about a problem doesn't lend itself to a solution

00:22:48.935 --> 00:22:51.875
that doesn't make sense for the long term.

00:22:52.335 --> 00:22:55.595
Probably because we often know that we'll be on the receding end of having to

00:22:55.595 --> 00:22:58.695
clean it up in four or five years.

00:22:59.955 --> 00:23:03.735
Go fix this dumpster fire that you told me five years ago we were going to create.

00:23:04.135 --> 00:23:06.175
You know, now go in and fix it.

00:23:07.415 --> 00:23:11.075
Well, I mean, that's something to add to with the fatigue. which is that there's

00:23:11.075 --> 00:23:16.115
such a rush to deliver something tangible in the here and the now,

00:23:16.295 --> 00:23:20.455
which does create the tech and the data debt and improves upon the fatigue,

00:23:21.415 --> 00:23:28.275
that then you're cleaning up the messes that were left from the last initiative.

00:23:28.915 --> 00:23:34.375
And so it exponentially increases the complexity and the challenges for whatever

00:23:34.375 --> 00:23:40.055
the next project is and the cost to clean up what happened before from all the

00:23:40.055 --> 00:23:42.015
assumed debt that you had.

00:23:42.275 --> 00:23:47.735
And it's just creating that bigger monster that kind of feeds on that perpetual,

00:23:47.735 --> 00:23:51.875
like, oh, well, now that we have this problem that was created from the last

00:23:51.875 --> 00:23:53.435
initiative, now we need to address that,

00:23:53.915 --> 00:23:57.735
as opposed to when we were just trying to get the data to the business users

00:23:57.735 --> 00:24:01.215
who are not technical, which was our simple ask, you know, five years ago, right?

00:24:01.455 --> 00:24:04.195
Look, there's a ton of opportunity out there, right?

00:24:04.375 --> 00:24:08.255
And I don't mean to strike a negative tone at all.

00:24:08.255 --> 00:24:14.175
I think we're just seeing a bit of a rush, a bit of a chaotic moment right now

00:24:14.175 --> 00:24:19.515
that unfortunately are affecting people transitioning careers in a real intangible way.

00:24:19.735 --> 00:24:24.955
What's some practical advice that you can offer to our listeners as they're on their journey?

00:24:25.275 --> 00:24:29.215
A lot of this may not be news, but it's worth reiterating that.

00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:36.270
Honor and support your network, you'd be surprised who all you know and are there to support you.

00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:39.750
And I think that's more what I've realized of folks in my network,

00:24:39.850 --> 00:24:41.630
that I really have an incredible network.

00:24:41.930 --> 00:24:46.950
And to maintain that, stay close with everyone, because these are the people

00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:51.670
who already know you and who already endorse who you are and your work product

00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:56.770
and are going to be the biggest advocates as you go on to share, sell,

00:24:56.990 --> 00:25:02.150
provide services in whatever capacity you your product or your menu of services are.

00:25:02.350 --> 00:25:07.250
But then also one thing that I think a lot of folks talk about,

00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:13.710
which is more, you know, marketing and sales activity, and you should be the lighthouse.

00:25:14.110 --> 00:25:18.410
Think of your personality as a lighthouse and you need to broadcast the light

00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:20.930
of who you are everywhere you go,

00:25:21.090 --> 00:25:25.570
including your network and beyond so that everyone's very clear on who you are

00:25:25.570 --> 00:25:30.310
and have already bought into that as part of selling your services, doing just,

00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:33.790
I guess, spray and pray type, like marketing activities in particular,

00:25:34.030 --> 00:25:36.930
social media networks, I think sounds good.

00:25:37.130 --> 00:25:42.650
However, in practical terms, isn't really that thoughtful when you need to understand

00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:48.530
one, you know, who are the folks that already go, I already appealed to who's my market.

00:25:48.530 --> 00:25:53.890
And then beyond that, as opposed to becoming masking, you know.

00:25:54.330 --> 00:25:58.790
Your personality blended into kind of like a templatized box for marketing.

00:25:59.070 --> 00:26:02.390
Instead, I would say do the opposite and be all you.

00:26:02.790 --> 00:26:06.190
And I think that's part of the product of what you're selling.

00:26:06.190 --> 00:26:09.890
And, you know, you're the only person that can do that.

00:26:09.890 --> 00:26:13.630
And I think that that's something that, of all the things that folks talk about,

00:26:13.930 --> 00:26:18.150
isn't really something that comes forward or I've heard as much as part of when

00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:21.550
you are making transitions and perhaps starting your own business.

00:26:22.090 --> 00:26:27.210
Yeah, I'm going to give a Instagram-like quote to start.

00:26:28.318 --> 00:26:36.158
Your value is not your job. And I think that's something that took me a while.

00:26:36.158 --> 00:26:38.198
And we've kind of been hinting at it.

00:26:38.438 --> 00:26:40.698
You know, Karen, I think you said something earlier that was similar.

00:26:41.598 --> 00:26:44.998
I worked with an executive coach during this transition. And,

00:26:45.198 --> 00:26:47.938
you know, one of the things that she said to me is, you know,

00:26:47.958 --> 00:26:50.258
I was spinning one day about, well, what am I going to do?

00:26:50.418 --> 00:26:54.238
And, you know, after the kids go off the bus and I've made lunch,

00:26:54.358 --> 00:26:55.118
like, what am I going to do?

00:26:55.798 --> 00:26:58.918
And she is that a bad thing?

00:26:59.338 --> 00:27:04.898
Why was your value tied to how many meetings that you had in the day?

00:27:05.278 --> 00:27:12.718
So during that transition, really maybe thinking about what constitutes value for you.

00:27:12.858 --> 00:27:19.518
And if that value was for me, I got to be fourth grade room mom for a couple of months.

00:27:19.998 --> 00:27:22.378
Anjali and I got to play golf together.

00:27:23.418 --> 00:27:28.918
I got to paint. I got to do these things. And just because it wasn't how many

00:27:28.918 --> 00:27:34.598
meetings I had or how many things I analyzed, I did make spreadsheets for the

00:27:34.598 --> 00:27:37.958
fourth grade room moms, which is probably why they told me I'm not,

00:27:38.278 --> 00:27:41.058
they will not ask me to be a room mom again.

00:27:41.518 --> 00:27:45.358
But I think that's important to remember that for those that are transitioning

00:27:45.358 --> 00:27:48.098
is that you don't want to operate from a place of panic.

00:27:48.298 --> 00:27:51.558
And I think sometimes when we look at our jobs and our careers and we say,

00:27:51.658 --> 00:27:55.038
okay, you know, my value is there and this thing has transitioned and happened,

00:27:55.038 --> 00:27:56.198
it can be really, really hard.

00:27:56.418 --> 00:28:00.838
You know, maybe on the practical side, Karen, what you said about networking

00:28:00.838 --> 00:28:04.858
and not waiting until you were in a transition to really network.

00:28:05.378 --> 00:28:09.118
Traditional networking doesn't really feel authentic to me.

00:28:09.158 --> 00:28:14.498
So I find it really hard, but I will tell you there is nothing worse than cold calling on LinkedIn.

00:28:14.658 --> 00:28:16.858
Hi, I haven't talk to you in 20 years.

00:28:17.038 --> 00:28:19.658
Here's my resume. Don't wait to do that.

00:28:20.858 --> 00:28:24.298
You, you know, reach out to folks. I think particularly as women,

00:28:24.418 --> 00:28:28.018
sometimes we just, we get busy, grab that coffee, grab that lunch.

00:28:28.525 --> 00:28:33.165
They said, Anneli and I played golf together, and here we are.

00:28:33.265 --> 00:28:37.445
We didn't even realize we had similar, you know, career trajectories, similar interests.

00:28:37.745 --> 00:28:40.845
And, you know, Karen, I love what you said about, you know, tell your story.

00:28:41.065 --> 00:28:43.785
And those networking opportunities are really everywhere.

00:28:44.225 --> 00:28:46.925
Keep your resume up to date. You know, one of the

00:28:46.925 --> 00:28:49.865
most humbling things was after 20 years to

00:28:49.865 --> 00:28:56.905
have to dust out the same resume that I had from when I graduated from undergrad

00:28:56.905 --> 00:29:05.065
and look at my bullet point Columbia Business School format that was so in vogue

00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:08.345
in 2005 and say, okay, this doesn't work anymore.

00:29:08.845 --> 00:29:12.785
Set a timer every year, every six months. Just take a look at your LinkedIn,

00:29:13.025 --> 00:29:16.865
take a look at your resume, take a look at your network and make that part of your goals.

00:29:16.885 --> 00:29:20.445
I'm going to have coffee with two or three people. I'm going to,

00:29:20.545 --> 00:29:24.485
you know, look at the resume and update, you know, for certain bullet points.

00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:26.865
I'll look at LinkedIn and see what I need to update.

00:29:27.005 --> 00:29:30.885
I think just some practical things people can do is that the environment is

00:29:30.885 --> 00:29:32.465
not going to stop changing.

00:29:32.805 --> 00:29:36.365
So how do we better prepare ourselves for what the next transition looks like?

00:29:36.525 --> 00:29:43.405
I love that. And I think this post-COVID world has also fed into a lot of that

00:29:43.405 --> 00:29:48.505
kind of lack of connection. So, you know, a lot of the things that we used to

00:29:48.505 --> 00:29:50.485
do, a lot of that's gone away.

00:29:50.765 --> 00:29:55.865
So those simple opportunities to grab coffee with somebody have evaporated and

00:29:55.865 --> 00:29:59.645
we have to be much more intentional in terms of setting up that time.

00:29:59.725 --> 00:30:03.405
But it's a great reminder to actually make it a priority to,

00:30:03.405 --> 00:30:05.585
you know, foster those personal connections.

00:30:06.460 --> 00:30:10.280
I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, I'm old enough, let's say,

00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.380
to remember a different time and expectations.

00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.620
And I think that that's something, as much as when I started,

00:30:16.620 --> 00:30:21.060
I was mostly mentored or managed by boomers.

00:30:21.060 --> 00:30:25.800
And my standard of expectations of how we interact, what a manager is,

00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.860
and what being managed is like, was really formed then.

00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:34.120
And I've noticed more recently, as I am getting older,

00:30:34.540 --> 00:30:39.540
that there's just a very different expectation of engagement for folks that

00:30:39.540 --> 00:30:47.240
are newer in the job market or fresh out of college and acknowledging what their

00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.460
experiences have been in terms of,

00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:56.120
even beyond post-COVID, of just what they understand their relationship to be with their employer,

00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.600
their manager, what does being managed mean?

00:30:58.600 --> 00:31:02.640
And really, I think I heard something radical candor.

00:31:02.780 --> 00:31:08.020
I mean, sounds very overly engineered, but really, I mean, just beyond all that,

00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:13.060
finding opportunities to be yourself and being comfortable enough to communicate

00:31:13.060 --> 00:31:17.060
to others what you need and to find forums for you to,

00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:21.960
instead of being in the hallway of what does work for you.

00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.280
And I feel like Radical Candor is like the next New York Times bestseller.

00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:31.360
It sounds like one of those like management books that needs to come out.

00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:36.480
Speaking of Radical Candor, you know, when I was making my, you know,

00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:39.540
transition and having conversations with folks.

00:31:40.219 --> 00:31:42.099
It's important to remember without

00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:46.799
maybe getting political that the macro environment that we're living in.

00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:53.859
And when I made this transition in the fall of 2024, things looked very different

00:31:53.859 --> 00:31:57.459
in the world than as I was looking to, you know,

00:31:57.899 --> 00:32:02.179
find kind of my next opportunity in the in, you know, early 2025.

00:32:02.739 --> 00:32:07.659
And I remember a bunch of folks very helpfully saying, you know,

00:32:07.679 --> 00:32:08.639
look at all the experience,

00:32:08.859 --> 00:32:13.299
you have, you know, you're a black female PhD in your early 40s,

00:32:13.379 --> 00:32:17.919
like you have years of executive experience, you will find a job in a heartbeat.

00:32:18.439 --> 00:32:20.699
And then all of a sudden, I looked around and said, oh, maybe,

00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:26.599
maybe those are, are not things that, you know, will prompt me to find the job in a heartbeat.

00:32:26.919 --> 00:32:30.299
Not that those are ever things that have gotten me a job.

00:32:30.479 --> 00:32:33.699
But, you know, all of a sudden, you look at yourself and you say, okay, these,

00:32:34.179 --> 00:32:36.539
these, you know, I remember having a conversation with someone and say,

00:32:36.619 --> 00:32:40.859
I don't know that those are the selling points that you think they are,

00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:45.479
despite the, you know, top track that we face these days. But I did.

00:32:45.619 --> 00:32:50.119
I had some doubts about whether or not, you know, as I looked at my new search,

00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.259
would people look and say.

00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:56.659
People will assume that's a DEI hire and we don't want to go down that road

00:32:56.659 --> 00:33:01.119
despite the fact that you could stack, you know, probably all of our resumes

00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.519
up against anyone else's.

00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.159
And if you blinded them, that would not not be a concern.

00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.839
So yeah, there were some of the conversations that you talk about radical candor

00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:13.119
that, you know, I had with myself and also had with my network.

00:33:14.219 --> 00:33:17.679
So what's next? So maybe I'll start.

00:33:17.879 --> 00:33:23.179
I'm not publicly announcing maybe by the time this goes live, it will be public.

00:33:23.399 --> 00:33:28.299
But I have, you know, identified what my next opportunity is.

00:33:28.439 --> 00:33:32.119
And I'm kind of working through the process of transitioning to that organization.

00:33:32.179 --> 00:33:36.739
I'm really excited still in the data analytics and insights space,

00:33:36.739 --> 00:33:42.019
but I think that this transition has taught me something both personally and professionally.

00:33:42.219 --> 00:33:44.719
And so I'm actually really looking forward to,

00:33:45.558 --> 00:33:49.518
Taking all the things that I've learned in a 20-year career and applying them

00:33:49.518 --> 00:33:54.318
to this new opportunity, but taking the things that I learned during this three

00:33:54.318 --> 00:33:57.178
or four-month transition period and also applying them.

00:33:57.338 --> 00:34:03.118
I think to show up in a new organization now will look very different than when

00:34:03.118 --> 00:34:07.218
I started as an intern at my organization 20 years ago.

00:34:07.438 --> 00:34:11.438
So that's what's next. I definitely think there'll be a better balance and a

00:34:11.438 --> 00:34:15.298
reminder that even this is a season. And the only thing constant is change.

00:34:16.258 --> 00:34:19.678
So we will go from there. Absolutely. Well, yes.

00:34:19.838 --> 00:34:24.818
And what's next for me is me continuing on my journey to explore my own business

00:34:24.818 --> 00:34:29.038
opportunity, also exploring opportunities with folks that I've worked with in the past.

00:34:29.198 --> 00:34:35.338
That's a reality of where we're transitioning from where we started or what

00:34:35.338 --> 00:34:39.038
work looked like when we started our careers to the reality of what I think

00:34:39.038 --> 00:34:41.938
we see a lot of the younger,

00:34:42.518 --> 00:34:47.898
Gen Z, whatever we're talking about, where everyone has a lot of different opportunities

00:34:47.898 --> 00:34:48.618
they're working through.

00:34:48.818 --> 00:34:53.258
And I think I don't really know what that is for someone in my season,

00:34:53.378 --> 00:34:57.618
let's say, of my career, but I'm starting to notice that also for other folks

00:34:57.618 --> 00:35:00.058
as well, what that new reality is.

00:35:00.458 --> 00:35:08.538
So last question, what is one surprising or unexpected thing that you did as

00:35:08.538 --> 00:35:11.298
you're going through this transition, whether it's with your family,

00:35:11.418 --> 00:35:12.498
your kids, for yourself.

00:35:12.678 --> 00:35:16.858
I think a surprising thing, which may be surprising to people,

00:35:17.038 --> 00:35:19.458
is there is life nine to five.

00:35:21.198 --> 00:35:25.178
I went to the grocery store when I realized how expensive peanut butter is.

00:35:25.298 --> 00:35:26.378
I was like, oh my goodness, peanut

00:35:26.378 --> 00:35:29.218
butter is really expensive because I started in my own grocery shop.

00:35:30.668 --> 00:35:35.928
You know, being out in the middle of the day, you know, people live and function.

00:35:36.348 --> 00:35:39.588
And, you know, I say this as someone whose husband works shift work.

00:35:39.768 --> 00:35:43.728
I just, you know, being able to make a doctor's appointment in the middle of

00:35:43.728 --> 00:35:47.688
the day or call and get a dentist appointment and you can actually go and not

00:35:47.688 --> 00:35:51.368
have to schedule out six or seven weeks because you need one at 530.

00:35:52.208 --> 00:35:57.348
You have lunch and places are packed because people go out and eat lunch.

00:35:57.348 --> 00:36:04.408
But I think, you know, a surprising thing that I did during this time was I renovated a bathroom.

00:36:04.828 --> 00:36:09.408
I had the time. I, you know, probably speaks to something in my psyche that

00:36:09.408 --> 00:36:12.948
I needed something to physically to do to feel very accomplished.

00:36:12.948 --> 00:36:20.148
And with the power of YouTube and my father-in-law, we fed in a bathroom basically down to the studs.

00:36:20.148 --> 00:36:26.968
I moved plumbing, I flanged a toilet, but a very different skill set than,

00:36:26.968 --> 00:36:29.628
you know, I employed every day.

00:36:29.868 --> 00:36:34.308
But I don't think I could do that transition forever. But when I talk about

00:36:34.308 --> 00:36:37.308
finding value, this time wasn't a waste.

00:36:37.708 --> 00:36:40.908
I got to do things. I got to take a breath.

00:36:41.168 --> 00:36:45.168
And I think there were actually very few times that I was bored where I literally

00:36:45.168 --> 00:36:49.208
said, oh my goodness, I have to do something. And I think that was really surprising to me.

00:36:50.388 --> 00:36:56.648
Wow. I'm very impressed. I think I've been similar to you, Angelique.

00:36:56.808 --> 00:37:02.348
I have not taken any time off really throughout the course of my career.

00:37:02.608 --> 00:37:05.808
And I may have been known to bring my laptop with me on vacation.

00:37:05.808 --> 00:37:07.668
I'm not saying it's great. I'm just saying it happened, right?

00:37:08.668 --> 00:37:17.188
And I had such a focus on just constantly working on and delivering on whatever project I'm working on.

00:37:17.428 --> 00:37:24.568
And what I really enjoyed is spending time with my kids and that during the

00:37:24.568 --> 00:37:26.268
day, no less, and that, you know,

00:37:27.028 --> 00:37:30.208
usually in the morning, in the evening, it's a really stressful time where everybody's

00:37:30.208 --> 00:37:34.108
either kind of hustling to get together to get out the door or is completely

00:37:34.108 --> 00:37:38.268
exhausted as you're winding down and spent for the day and that I didn't get

00:37:38.268 --> 00:37:41.648
the best time with them and the best of them.

00:37:41.908 --> 00:37:49.088
And what I really enjoyed and really want to prioritize is spending time while

00:37:49.088 --> 00:37:53.748
they're still young to enjoy being with them and getting a chance to take advantage

00:37:53.748 --> 00:37:56.688
of a lot of those things that happen during the day to go to the museum or to

00:37:56.688 --> 00:38:00.548
go to the park or to just spend time like reading a book together.

00:38:00.828 --> 00:38:06.848
That's huge. And I realized that they're not going to be young forever and really, really value that.

00:38:06.988 --> 00:38:13.408
And that's been something, it's not flanging a toilet, but something that,

00:38:13.488 --> 00:38:17.328
you know, after losing, my parents have really, has really given me pause of

00:38:17.328 --> 00:38:18.888
like, what are my priorities?

00:38:19.108 --> 00:38:21.908
What do I want going forward? And to...

00:38:22.675 --> 00:38:28.995
Really, I've just been surprised, maybe had a little guilt that I haven't done that before now.

00:38:29.575 --> 00:38:34.095
I told my family, I was having a conversation with my husband about,

00:38:34.095 --> 00:38:35.955
you know, the potential transition.

00:38:36.295 --> 00:38:41.075
I shared with Karen that, you know, my daughter, who's nine and a little sassy,

00:38:41.515 --> 00:38:45.675
said, does that mean that you won't have to take your computer on vacation?

00:38:45.675 --> 00:38:50.475
And they realized that, you know, for like the thought in her mind wasn't,

00:38:50.615 --> 00:38:53.955
oh my goodness, what if, you know, my mom is transitioning out of a job, what happened?

00:38:54.295 --> 00:38:59.855
She's really excited that maybe my laptop wouldn't be permanently attached to my hand.

00:38:59.995 --> 00:39:02.755
So yeah, out of the mouths of babes, but yeah.

00:39:03.175 --> 00:39:06.515
We, as a family, tend to go away together quite a bit.

00:39:06.635 --> 00:39:12.675
It's really that disconnection from the things that keep us from spending time

00:39:12.675 --> 00:39:16.635
together or really not bringing the best of each other forward, right?

00:39:16.795 --> 00:39:19.415
Like Karen, to your point, that morning hustle, that evening exhaustion.

00:39:20.115 --> 00:39:23.915
The running around here, there, and everywhere, the crying, all that.

00:39:24.115 --> 00:39:27.435
It's like, all right, we're on vacation. We can actually like disconnect for

00:39:27.435 --> 00:39:32.775
a little bit and spend time together and make memories together or like just

00:39:32.775 --> 00:39:34.255
enrich each other's lives.

00:39:34.495 --> 00:39:39.735
But anyways, with that being said, ladies, thank you both so much for taking the time today.

00:39:39.955 --> 00:39:44.855
I cannot wait to see what, you know, where this journey takes both of you.

00:39:44.935 --> 00:39:48.655
I'm going to be incredibly successful, badass, and rock it all.

00:39:48.995 --> 00:39:53.995
So I'm really excited to see where this journey takes you. So thank you.