Embracing Change: Career Risks and Rewards

0:02 Welcome back to How I Met Your Data, the show where we stop pretending data is simple and start getting real about what it takes to work with it. We've been in the data trenches, and now we're here as your companions in this ever-evolving world where the community is as diverse as the stories we share. From hands-on practitioners to the rapidly shifting tech, we're bringing you the insights, strategies, and sometimes chaos that shape the way data really works. Whether you're here for fresh ideas, a spark of inspiration, or just some good old-fashioned data banter, you're in the right place. So grab a coffee, get comfy, and let's dive in.

0:44 Welcome. Today I have with me friends of mine from different eras in my life, but I'm so excited to have both of you here to talk about navigating changes in your careers, talking to each of you individually about what you've been experiencing, I have a thought. What if the biggest career risk is actually staying exactly where you are? What do you think? Absolutely. Well, I can introduce myself first. I am Karen Meppen and a longtime friend and fan of you, Anjali, as well. So I'm excited to partner with you in these podcasts. I originally started off in finance.

1:25 And I found myself spending a lot more time automating or making a lot of my processes as a grunt at JP Morgan Chase, improving those processes to where I felt more focused on the technology and problem solving and creating efficiencies than evaluating the assets that I was working on. And so I ended up getting a job offer to go out to Las Vegas, really took on a job working as a project manager to overhaul very custom written COBOL applications that handle hard money lending within the Southern Nevada area. It really took off from there and have really been focusing on how to connect business needs and data ever since in so many different ways.

2:07 I half joke that I'm a data therapist because I need to come together with the tech folks in technology, the business, those who are in privacy. Legal obligations, cybersecurity, everyone has to come together to make a business solution work. And that's really what I've been doing for the majority of my career. And so I have plenty of experience leading data and analytics engagements, but I'm also a fellow of information privacy, definitely have cut my teeth in cybersecurity. And really where that all comes together is through data governance and data strategy to bring it all together to deliver what the business needs. And so I've been doing that for well over 20 years and had the benefit of working with you when we were at Slalom and have worked through ever since to where right now I'm focusing on building out my own business.

2:57 Karen, you're, you're, we'll hear a lot of parallels, I think, between what, what Karen and I will say. So maybe to start, you know, Anjali, to answer your question, yes, there is, is risk in staying where you are and staying in one place. And, and hopefully as, as we talk, you'll see some of that theme. I remember, you know, as I was kind of going through a transition, which I'll speak about, you know, just saying to my husband, you know, why is this set of circumstances happening? Why is this going on? And after hearing me complain for many, many months, he turned and looked at me and said, because you're not where you're supposed to be. And it was like a ton of bricks hitting me in the face.

3:38 And whether, you know, whatever your belief system is, it was like, there is some message that the universe is sending me and I have not been listening. And it finally forced me to listen. So as an introduction, my name is Angela Hopkins. I tell people that if you, if I wanted to describe myself, I would tell you that I was a scientist. That's who I am in my head. Like all good minority children who are interested in health care, I was supposed to go be a doctor. And the idea of four years of medical school and just treating kind of patient by patient was not interesting to me. So I took a detour into public health. And that answered for me what was really curiosity. How do I not look at, and you can see kind of the theme of data and analytics already starting.

4:22 I really wanted to look at the macro level of problem. Why? You know, why people get sick? Why is this happening? Why, you know, do the insights and data on the surface not really tell us the whole story? So my background's in public health with a focus of epidemiology and biostatistics. I've spent 20 years in the biopharmaceutical industry in various roles across R&D, commercial, finance, mostly supporting the intersection of data, strategy, insights, and analytics. Similar to Karen, I like to tell people that 10% of my job is analytics and probably 90% is therapy. But that's really where I have found my sweet spot is in being technical enough that I could understand, you know, the people who really geek out over numbers.

5:10 But my sweet spot is really what do numbers tell us and what's that insight and being able to tell a cohesive story, a compelling story that you can make out of that data. So that's really how my career has progressed. And, you know, just, I think, being a problem solver. My brain naturally skews towards, well, what is information telling me? I fundamentally believe that you can't solve a problem that you don't understand. So that's just how my brain worked. And for two, it is for me, it turned into almost 20-year career. You know, I love both of your career journeys. I think they're both unique and telling in really different ways. But now, as we think about looking past the rearview mirror and actually looking forward.

5:54 What has really started your journey on moving to a different role within your careers? Sure. Well, and I didn't originally circle back to your original question of the consequence of staying where you are. And that I do think as much as there's opportunity costs, I do think that that's something as it relates to looking at the data and being data driven to understand what's best for you. You really have to be very, I think, self-aware. And similarly, to read the room, which are two different skills for sure that you have to blend together to make sure that you are doing what's best for you and also understanding what's needed from you from your.

6:36 Your employer, but also the teams that you're working on and the projects that need you. And so for sure, that's a good pivot to talking about where I am today and really understanding what I'm seeing in the market and trying to create opportunities for myself and having the timidity to do it. I think it's one thing to say, you know, I'm going to do this, but then it's another thing following through. There's a lot of folks with great ideas, but there's not a lot that are actually transitioning it to reality. I needed to take a step back and think, well, what are my goals? Where do I want to be? And am I going to have that with my current opportunity or just really the opportunities that are available in the market for someone who's more established?

7:18 And am I able to do more for myself working in my own business? Yeah, so again, similar themes to some of the things that Karen mentioned. I think like a lot of women, you're good at something and somebody tells you you're good at it and you just kind of keep doing it. And, you know, as someone who spent, you know, a significant portion, actually my whole career kind of in one company, you have tons of opportunities. You know, great culture, great learning. It was a bit of, I always tell people, I admire the folks that have their careers kind of totally mapped out. Mine was a career by accident, not by design, but much more great.

7:59 You know, here's an opportunity. I'm curious. Let's go do that. Let's go do this. And that worked really, really well for a very, very long time. And then I think a few things converged for me. On the personal side, I turned 40, which is always a bit of an aha moment. I didn't have little kids anymore. I had big kids. And all of a sudden, I said, wait, what's happening there? And then my father also passed away. And so in the space of kind of six months, I had kind of a bunch of things that were happening in my life that I just, you know, really caused me to reevaluate. And I think for the first time, ask myself, what did I want to do? Not because I was good at it, not because I could, but what did I really want to do?

8:44 And I think that that set of circumstances, along with some things that were happening professionally, really led me to the transition that I found myself in. And what's hard is when that happens, I think people say, well, what went wrong? You know, what happened? wrong. And to be honest, I don't know that anything went wrong. It was a choice. It was a transition that I needed to make. And maybe Anjali took it to, expound on your initial question. I think especially women, sometimes we wait until something is wrong or we think that if you are leaving or transitioning, it's because something is wrong instead of the possibility that maybe there's something else you're supposed to move towards.

9:28 So yeah, that transition for me was really interesting and one that you and I spent lots of time on the golf course talking through. It's so funny because I feel like, especially as we see and hear about organizations that are going through reductions, I feel like so many of the standard standby mantras are posted out. This is the best thing that can happen to you. But as you're looking at what do you want to do with your careers? Are you starting to realize or see some of the truth behind those, I'll call it reckless optimism that is often spouted at people that are faced with a challenge?

10:14 Yeah, and I'm happy to start. So I love what you said about toxic positivity. I call it the Instagram pep talk, the chat GPT, LinkedIn post of all the things that you're supposed to say when you go through a job in a career transition. And yes, all of it is true. And there are moments where you're definitely there. There are also moments where you're not. And I think it is equally as fair to say, hey, there are moments where it sucks. There are moments where you doubt. There are moments where you say, oh my goodness, what is happening? I think probably for each of us, I was someone who I think I graduated with my master's on a Friday, and I started my full-time job that Monday.

10:56 I had never taken a break my entire career. I went from undergrad to my master's to my PhD, all while working full-time. So all of a sudden to have. A transition that on one hand, you tell yourself, this is good. You need to do this. This gives you some time. I want to be sensitive. I was lucky enough that financially, I could take that time and people would tell me, no, no, you should take that time. This is a gift. And all those things were true. At the same time, it also was hard to figure out what do you do in the morning? What do you do every day when you're used to being in back to back to back to back meetings, having things to talk about all day.

11:40 And you probably have said to yourself, well, I wish I could just have, you know, two or three months off. It's different when you have two or three months off. So I think finding the balance in both of those things, if you don't let yourself feel the emotion, I'm probably giving you an Instagram quote now, you don't let yourself feel the emotion, you just bottle it up. And you don't want to take that with you into whatever your next opportunity is. So I had to let myself feel, you know, the sadness, feel the, you know, disappointment, feel the anxiety, and then remind myself with data that, you know, whatever I was forecasting in my head was probably not going to happen. But dousing yourself in too much positive, you know, affirmations also isn't the right balance to strike.

12:28 Absolutely. Well, and that so much of what you're saying, Angelique, resonates with me as well. I'll add to it that I've received a lot of like feedback and awareness of like, what are my goals and what do I need to do better? Starting at the very beginning of my career, admittedly, I always want to make sure when I come to the table that I've dotted my I's and crossed my T's. And I'm confident in whatever it is I'm presenting or discussing. And also, it's a bit of a crude metaphor, but I also have usually been the one neck to choke. I haven't had as much confidence as I probably could have. What my standard is to really be confident or meet that bar is often different than everyone else.

13:11 And that's more where I've gone through a transition in my own career to realize, starting to sound like an Instagram quote, I am enough. I do actually know a lot. I have every reason to be confident. And while the self-doubt has kind of driven me to explore and to learn, to bring me to where I am today, I think that's more where with my maturity, I've realized that I also have landed in roles where it was based on more decision makers' perception of who I am and my abilities that have really how I've navigated my career and the roles that I've had rather than me actively deciding. And so that was a really big point in my reflection of like, I need to decide.

13:55 And as opposed to having kind of everything just kind of fall into place and follow the path set forth for me, what path am I going to set forth and how am I going to be successful? I'm going to be successful because I have to be confident and aware of what I'm seeing in the market. And. And then implement that plan. And also to your point, Angelique. Recognize that I'm at a different place in my life. I too have experienced, I've lost both of my parents and realized that you do need to fully experience each, like all the emotion and to push a lot of it down to kind of compartmentalize to get to the next day. And some of my, you know, for all the things going on that I am better for all my experiences and allowing for that.

14:39 And I'm a lot more empathetic for everyone that I interact with. And also just realizing what my own needs are so that I will be more successful because of that. And also I'll say failure is something that I'm not saying that necessarily failure in my career pivot necessarily, but more as a whole, when we hear about entrepreneurs, they're all successful because they've failed many times and learn from it. And that failure leads to really realigning or iterating on the path to success. And I think that's the part that you don't see on Instagram or whatever social media your path you're on. And so as I'm learning, and that's really been part of my growth experience as I'm establishing my own business of what am I doing that is successful.

15:25 The market is shifting so fast. There's so many changes that are happening literally every day that it's almost impossible to stay ahead of. But what are some of the noticeable trends that you've both experienced? Yeah, I think Karen and I have shared similar things that made us successful and that we both kind of sit a little bit in this, you know. Translator, integrator, you know, space, the ability to kind of speak both languages, both the technical side and be able to distill that into, you know, a presentation for a C-suite executive. I think one of the trends that I'm seeing is with the rush around AI. And look, AI is a continuum. We talk about machine learning, and this is just kind of the latest iteration buzzwords of where the technology is taking us. But it's one that we can't ignore.

16:15 I was on a panel a few weeks ago, and someone said, AI is a train that has left the station. If you're not on it, you're already behind. So I do think for several years, folks who were in data and analytics really found maybe a sweet spot in this translator integrator role. You could speak the technical language, but you could also distill it. And what I'm seeing is a bit more technical shift. In a rush to not get left behind the AI trends, there is a push to just get things done, get the pilots out the door, gather the technical folks to just figure out, how do I do this? I think for many of us, you know, particularly who have been in leadership positions in a data analytics space, the question for us is, well, what now?

17:04 What do you do next? What's sustainable? And when you are running a thousand miles an hour and, you know, organizations are really focused on not having the egg on their face of being left behind, sometimes those questions are seen as not being on board or sometimes those questions are seen as controversial. When there's a balance between getting something done and getting to proof of concept and getting there really quickly and creating the right data governance and the right infrastructure and asking the right business questions that can be solved with some of the really interesting and cool things that we're seeing could be done with AI.

17:44 It also sometimes speech people say, well, you know, I need an AI project. What business problem do you have? And it feels like we are trending sometimes more. And look, we saw this happen, what, 15 years ago when big data was all the rage, right? You know, make me a data lake. A data lake with what? So, you know, I think that's probably the biggest trend I'm seeing is that, you know, I'm finding a lot of data and analytics colleagues who really were in that sweet spot and are feeling like they have to bifurcate of whether you're going into the business as the business partner or you're going back to the more technical track, I think the pendulum will swing the other way, or at least that's my hope.

18:28 Absolutely. I mean, I agree. Plus one to everything you're saying and that I think there's a major disconnect between those who are the decision makers and the C-suite, let's say, and those that are the boots on the ground. And so there's very much a disconnect because there are a lot of really educated folks in the AI realm that are more like a hammer looking for a nail. And then I think there's a different pushback from those on the business domain side who I feel like they're already those established power users who have adopted AI in whatever capacity in their role. And now what's left is a lot of people who, even within the tech space.

19:12 Who have circled the wagons and are protecting their fiefdom, protecting their role. They don't want a new job description. They don't want to learn new technology and also don't want to even talk about it because there's, I think, a major unspoken concern wherever you go of, is this going to automate me out of my job? If I talk to you and we're working together on this implementation, am I working my way out of a job? And so I think that kind of net effect is what I'm seeing across the board, where there's a lot of folks that I know that are incredible and have done really complex connecting of data and so many of the nuance and sophistication of filtering out the PHI and making sure that it's labeled and annotated and accessible to the business.

20:03 And then they're let go and they're like, what happened? And that's happening rather consistently. And it's more a matter of like, well, I think from. A lot of the business decision makers perspective, now that everything's set up, you know, we can hire someone that's a little earlier in their career path and we can maybe outsource to an offshore team somewhere or near shore it. We'll take the hit for whatever net loss we get. I do think we're at a different arc when you talk about what AI adoption means for businesses that aren't already AI native. It feels like we just continue to perpetuate our mistakes, right?

20:44 So we've accumulated tech debt because we made decisions fast. We accumulated data debt because we just needed to lift and shift our data and move to the next great thing. So it feels like we're just repeating our same mistakes again in this rush to find a nail for our AI hammer and just creating problems for ourselves in the future. It's also the fatigue that's so constant that everybody's just over it. It is. It's a change fatigue. And I think you're seeing it across the board, but definitely with folks that focus on data and analytics. And part of that, I think, then the separation that you're seeing is this tend towards just delivering a product.

21:25 OK, this is what they ask for here. You can have it. I'm too tired to fight with you. I'm too tired to battle and question whether this is what you really want. So here you can have it versus, you know, the folks that are maybe being a little more thoughtful or, you know, really want to solve a problem for the long term. You know, Anjali, you hit the nail on the head. That's a tomorrow problem. You know, we have to deal with the problem that's right in front of us. And the problem that's right in front of us is deliver me whatever pilot, deliver me whatever project. And I'll deal with that other debt. I'll deal with that five years from now. I think that this is also something that disproportionately impacts women, just because historically, because of the convergence of probably our personal and professional lives, and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, we don't normally have the benefit of not thinking about the consequences of things in the long term.

22:19 So that's just kind of naturally how our brains work. And so I think in particular, we're going to find there are a few and far more of us are growing in the and the data and analytics space every day, but I think you're going to find, just a little bit of the practical approach that women take, have a tendency to take. Taking a little bit of a hit in this environment because, you know, our brains and how we think about a problem doesn't lend itself to a solution that doesn't make sense for the long term. Probably because we often know that we'll be on the receding end of having to clean it up in four or five years.

22:59 Go fix this dumpster fire that you told me five years ago we were going to create. You know, now go in and fix it. Well, I mean, that's something to add to with the fatigue. which is that there's such a rush to deliver something tangible in the here and the now, which does create the tech and the data debt and improves upon the fatigue, that then you're cleaning up the messes that were left from the last initiative. And so it exponentially increases the complexity and the challenges for whatever the next project is and the cost to clean up what happened before from all the assumed debt that you had.

23:42 And it's just creating that bigger monster that kind of feeds on that perpetual, like, oh, well, now that we have this problem that was created from the last initiative, now we need to address that, as opposed to when we were just trying to get the data to the business users who are not technical, which was our simple ask, you know, five years ago, right? Look, there's a ton of opportunity out there, right? And I don't mean to strike a negative tone at all. I think we're just seeing a bit of a rush, a bit of a chaotic moment right now that unfortunately are affecting people transitioning careers in a real intangible way. What's some practical advice that you can offer to our listeners as they're on their journey?

24:25 A lot of this may not be news, but it's worth reiterating that. Honor and support your network, you'd be surprised who all you know and are there to support you. And I think that's more what I've realized of folks in my network, that I really have an incredible network. And to maintain that, stay close with everyone, because these are the people who already know you and who already endorse who you are and your work product and are going to be the biggest advocates as you go on to share, sell, provide services in whatever capacity you your product or your menu of services are. But then also one thing that I think a lot of folks talk about, which is more, you know, marketing and sales activity, and you should be the lighthouse.

25:14 Think of your personality as a lighthouse and you need to broadcast the light of who you are everywhere you go, including your network and beyond so that everyone's very clear on who you are and have already bought into that as part of selling your services, doing just, I guess, spray and pray type, like marketing activities in particular, social media networks, I think sounds good. However, in practical terms, isn't really that thoughtful when you need to understand one, you know, who are the folks that already go, I already appealed to who's my market. And then beyond that, as opposed to becoming masking, you know.

25:54 Your personality blended into kind of like a templatized box for marketing. Instead, I would say do the opposite and be all you. And I think that's part of the product of what you're selling. And, you know, you're the only person that can do that. And I think that that's something that, of all the things that folks talk about, isn't really something that comes forward or I've heard as much as part of when you are making transitions and perhaps starting your own business. Yeah, I'm going to give a Instagram-like quote to start. Your value is not your job. And I think that's something that took me a while.

26:36 And we've kind of been hinting at it. You know, Karen, I think you said something earlier that was similar. I worked with an executive coach during this transition. And, you know, one of the things that she said to me is, you know, I was spinning one day about, well, what am I going to do? And, you know, after the kids go off the bus and I've made lunch, like, what am I going to do? And she is that a bad thing? Why was your value tied to how many meetings that you had in the day? So during that transition, really maybe thinking about what constitutes value for you. And if that value was for me, I got to be fourth grade room mom for a couple of months.

27:19 Anjali and I got to play golf together. I got to paint. I got to do these things. And just because it wasn't how many meetings I had or how many things I analyzed, I did make spreadsheets for the fourth grade room moms, which is probably why they told me I'm not, they will not ask me to be a room mom again. But I think that's important to remember that for those that are transitioning is that you don't want to operate from a place of panic. And I think sometimes when we look at our jobs and our careers and we say, okay, you know, my value is there and this thing has transitioned and happened, it can be really, really hard. You know, maybe on the practical side, Karen, what you said about networking and not waiting until you were in a transition to really network.

28:05 Traditional networking doesn't really feel authentic to me. So I find it really hard, but I will tell you there is nothing worse than cold calling on LinkedIn. Hi, I haven't talk to you in 20 years. Here's my resume. Don't wait to do that. You, you know, reach out to folks. I think particularly as women, sometimes we just, we get busy, grab that coffee, grab that lunch. They said, Anneli and I played golf together, and here we are. We didn't even realize we had similar, you know, career trajectories, similar interests. And, you know, Karen, I love what you said about, you know, tell your story. And those networking opportunities are really everywhere. Keep your resume up to date. You know, one of the most humbling things was after 20 years to have to dust out the same resume that I had from when I graduated from undergrad and look at my bullet point Columbia Business School format that was so in vogue in 2005 and say, okay, this doesn't work anymore.

29:08 Set a timer every year, every six months. Just take a look at your LinkedIn, take a look at your resume, take a look at your network and make that part of your goals. I'm going to have coffee with two or three people. I'm going to, you know, look at the resume and update, you know, for certain bullet points. I'll look at LinkedIn and see what I need to update. I think just some practical things people can do is that the environment is not going to stop changing. So how do we better prepare ourselves for what the next transition looks like? I love that. And I think this post-COVID world has also fed into a lot of that kind of lack of connection. So, you know, a lot of the things that we used to do, a lot of that's gone away.

29:50 So those simple opportunities to grab coffee with somebody have evaporated and we have to be much more intentional in terms of setting up that time. But it's a great reminder to actually make it a priority to, you know, foster those personal connections. I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, I'm old enough, let's say, to remember a different time and expectations. And I think that that's something, as much as when I started, I was mostly mentored or managed by boomers. And my standard of expectations of how we interact, what a manager is, and what being managed is like, was really formed then. And I've noticed more recently, as I am getting older, that there's just a very different expectation of engagement for folks that are newer in the job market or fresh out of college and acknowledging what their experiences have been in terms of, even beyond post-COVID, of just what they understand their relationship to be with their employer, their manager, what does being managed mean?

30:58 And really, I think I heard something radical candor. I mean, sounds very overly engineered, but really, I mean, just beyond all that, finding opportunities to be yourself and being comfortable enough to communicate to others what you need and to find forums for you to, instead of being in the hallway of what does work for you. And I feel like Radical Candor is like the next New York Times bestseller. It sounds like one of those like management books that needs to come out. Speaking of Radical Candor, you know, when I was making my, you know, transition and having conversations with folks.

31:40 It's important to remember without maybe getting political that the macro environment that we're living in. And when I made this transition in the fall of 2024, things looked very different in the world than as I was looking to, you know, find kind of my next opportunity in the in, you know, early 2025. And I remember a bunch of folks very helpfully saying, you know, look at all the experience, you have, you know, you're a black female PhD in your early 40s, like you have years of executive experience, you will find a job in a heartbeat. And then all of a sudden, I looked around and said, oh, maybe, maybe those are, are not things that, you know, will prompt me to find the job in a heartbeat.

32:26 Not that those are ever things that have gotten me a job. But, you know, all of a sudden, you look at yourself and you say, okay, these, these, you know, I remember having a conversation with someone and say, I don't know that those are the selling points that you think they are, despite the, you know, top track that we face these days. But I did. I had some doubts about whether or not, you know, as I looked at my new search, would people look and say. People will assume that's a DEI hire and we don't want to go down that road despite the fact that you could stack, you know, probably all of our resumes up against anyone else's. And if you blinded them, that would not not be a concern. So yeah, there were some of the conversations that you talk about radical candor that, you know, I had with myself and also had with my network.

33:14 So what's next? So maybe I'll start. I'm not publicly announcing maybe by the time this goes live, it will be public. But I have, you know, identified what my next opportunity is. And I'm kind of working through the process of transitioning to that organization. I'm really excited still in the data analytics and insights space, but I think that this transition has taught me something both personally and professionally. And so I'm actually really looking forward to, Taking all the things that I've learned in a 20-year career and applying them to this new opportunity, but taking the things that I learned during this three or four-month transition period and also applying them.

33:57 I think to show up in a new organization now will look very different than when I started as an intern at my organization 20 years ago. So that's what's next. I definitely think there'll be a better balance and a reminder that even this is a season. And the only thing constant is change. So we will go from there. Absolutely. Well, yes. And what's next for me is me continuing on my journey to explore my own business opportunity, also exploring opportunities with folks that I've worked with in the past. That's a reality of where we're transitioning from where we started or what work looked like when we started our careers to the reality of what I think we see a lot of the younger, Gen Z, whatever we're talking about, where everyone has a lot of different opportunities they're working through.

34:48 And I think I don't really know what that is for someone in my season, let's say, of my career, but I'm starting to notice that also for other folks as well, what that new reality is. So last question, what is one surprising or unexpected thing that you did as you're going through this transition, whether it's with your family, your kids, for yourself. I think a surprising thing, which may be surprising to people, is there is life nine to five. I went to the grocery store when I realized how expensive peanut butter is. I was like, oh my goodness, peanut butter is really expensive because I started in my own grocery shop.

35:30 You know, being out in the middle of the day, you know, people live and function. And, you know, I say this as someone whose husband works shift work. I just, you know, being able to make a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day or call and get a dentist appointment and you can actually go and not have to schedule out six or seven weeks because you need one at 530. You have lunch and places are packed because people go out and eat lunch. But I think, you know, a surprising thing that I did during this time was I renovated a bathroom. I had the time. I, you know, probably speaks to something in my psyche that I needed something to physically to do to feel very accomplished.

36:12 And with the power of YouTube and my father-in-law, we fed in a bathroom basically down to the studs. I moved plumbing, I flanged a toilet, but a very different skill set than, you know, I employed every day. But I don't think I could do that transition forever. But when I talk about finding value, this time wasn't a waste. I got to do things. I got to take a breath. And I think there were actually very few times that I was bored where I literally said, oh my goodness, I have to do something. And I think that was really surprising to me. Wow. I'm very impressed. I think I've been similar to you, Angelique.

36:56 I have not taken any time off really throughout the course of my career. And I may have been known to bring my laptop with me on vacation. I'm not saying it's great. I'm just saying it happened, right? And I had such a focus on just constantly working on and delivering on whatever project I'm working on. And what I really enjoyed is spending time with my kids and that during the day, no less, and that, you know, usually in the morning, in the evening, it's a really stressful time where everybody's either kind of hustling to get together to get out the door or is completely exhausted as you're winding down and spent for the day and that I didn't get the best time with them and the best of them.

37:41 And what I really enjoyed and really want to prioritize is spending time while they're still young to enjoy being with them and getting a chance to take advantage of a lot of those things that happen during the day to go to the museum or to go to the park or to just spend time like reading a book together. That's huge. And I realized that they're not going to be young forever and really, really value that. And that's been something, it's not flanging a toilet, but something that, you know, after losing, my parents have really, has really given me pause of like, what are my priorities? What do I want going forward? And to...

38:22 Really, I've just been surprised, maybe had a little guilt that I haven't done that before now. I told my family, I was having a conversation with my husband about, you know, the potential transition. I shared with Karen that, you know, my daughter, who's nine and a little sassy, said, does that mean that you won't have to take your computer on vacation? And they realized that, you know, for like the thought in her mind wasn't, oh my goodness, what if, you know, my mom is transitioning out of a job, what happened? She's really excited that maybe my laptop wouldn't be permanently attached to my hand. So yeah, out of the mouths of babes, but yeah.

39:03 We, as a family, tend to go away together quite a bit. It's really that disconnection from the things that keep us from spending time together or really not bringing the best of each other forward, right? Like Karen, to your point, that morning hustle, that evening exhaustion. The running around here, there, and everywhere, the crying, all that. It's like, all right, we're on vacation. We can actually like disconnect for a little bit and spend time together and make memories together or like just enrich each other's lives. But anyways, with that being said, ladies, thank you both so much for taking the time today. I cannot wait to see what, you know, where this journey takes both of you.

39:44 I'm going to be incredibly successful, badass, and rock it all. So I'm really excited to see where this journey takes you. So thank you.