Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Rachel Moore Best

0:00 Hey there. Welcome, and for those returning, welcome back to How I Met Your Data. I'm Sandy Estrada, here with my co-host, Anjali Bansel. We're your guides through the ever-evolving world of data where the community is as diverse as the stories we share. From hands-on practitioners to the ecosystem supporting them, we bring you insights and conversations that cover everything data-related. Whether you're here for the latest strategies, a dose of inspiration, or just some data banter, you're in the right place. So, grab a coffee, get comfy, and let's dive in. Music.

0:40 Hey everybody, Sandy here. Before we get into the episode, I just wanted to share some bittersweet news with you. After this episode, I'll be stepping away from how I met your data. I'm diving into an exciting new venture that's going to take up more of my time and focus, and while I'm thrilled about what's ahead, it also means saying goodbye to this incredible space we've created. The good news, though, is the podcast isn't going anywhere. Anjali is going to continue to lead the conversations, and she's bringing in a couple of fantastic co-hosts and involving the show in new, exciting ways. I can't wait to tune in as a listener. But I just want to take a moment to say thank you. This podcast started as a singular idea, something Anjali and I took a huge chance on, and I am incredibly, incredibly proud of what we've built.

1:27 It may be a small community, but it is one that truly resonates and it means absolutely everything to me. I'm proud of the space we've created, the conversations we've had, and the guests we've brought on, ones who aren't just the same voices you've heard everywhere else. We know there's so many podcasts to listen to. So again, thank you for the support, the questions, the conversations. It has been an absolute honor to be in this space with you. And don't worry, this will not be the last you hear from me, so stay tuned on that. All right, enough about that. For today's episode, we have Rachel Moore Best, the founding partner and lead strategist for The Human Factor. Her group works with individuals at every level of organizations as they navigate conflicting goals, organizational complexity, and human dynamics to solve tough challenges and build effective, sustainable teams.

2:14 Rachel is currently a lecturer at MIT Sloan and MIT School of Engineering, where she teaches power in a negotiation and negotiation and influence for technical leaders. Her notable clients include Disney, Nassau, and Boston Children's Hospital. Rachel is one of those individuals that I know one day I'll be able to turn around and say, I first met her when, and I am so excited to have had this opportunity to speak with her now for the second time. So without further ado, let's get into the episode. Music.

2:55 All right. So, Rachel, thank you for joining us here at How I Met Your Data. When I met you, I was LinkedIn. I did some searching on negotiation as a topic and found you on LinkedIn. I was absolutely just surprised by your resume, by your background, by everything you do. And I couldn't help myself but beg you to join us at Women in Data, which I lead the local Boston chapter for women in data. And I asked you to come present to the women there just because your topic is so needed today, especially in the realm of, for us, at least data analytics is very complex, right?

3:37 We have engineers who do very technical work and we have to help business people understand how to leverage data to solve business problems. And in the middle of that is a, world of negotiation and renegotiation and conversation. So when I heard about you and your focus and your work, I was just blown away and could not help myself but get to know you. And I'm so glad I have. And we have now this opportunity to share your insights with our listeners here on How I Met Your Data. So thank you for joining us. Oh, I am so thrilled to be here. And it was just a LinkedIn message out of the blue, but we had such a great conversation with Women in Data. And I'm excited to also connect with more of your network through the podcast.

4:20 Awesome. So maybe we could start at the beginning. As I said, your career journey has been absolutely fascinating to me. Do you mind sharing a little bit about how your path led to teaching negotiation that's specifically to engineers? Yeah, definitely. So I have a different path into negotiation than is typical. There are a few of us who are not lawyers, but we are few. Many people come through law school, negotiation, mediation, those kinds of skills are critical in law school curriculums. And so a lot of people come into the path of negotiation through law school. I didn't, on the other hand. I actually, I went to school originally to study music and learned very quickly I would be terrible at being a barista and trying to maintain my living as a musician.

5:06 And so I did end up married to a musician later. So, you know, it comes around. But and so in school, I was really searching for a way to leverage both the creative side of my brain, as well as this analytical side of my brain that told me I didn't want to be a barista. Right. And so I got into school and eventually found myself graduating with a degree in design and computer science. And so started out in a place where I was using the design part of my brain to really kind of understand the people involved. And then the technical side of my brain to explore and really push the boundaries of what we were trying to do. And that led me to take a job in New York City, moved to New York City straight out of undergrad, worked there for a while, and again, kind of found myself in this place where I was constantly in the middle, similar to what you just described, of you've got account people on one side, you've got creative on the other side, maybe you have a technical side.

6:02 And I'm sort of ending up in the center because I had, I would not say I was trilingual in that case, but I was trying, right, and trying to really translate between those different parties. I eventually realized that that career path that I was on wasn't for me. And I started thinking about what it would look like to move into something that felt a little bit more connected to my long-term interests. And my long-term interests were to do things that really helped people. And that led me to graduate school. And my original intention was to go to graduate school and get my master's in engineering at MIT, which I did. But I thought that was going to lead me to developing cool new technical products and bringing the human lens in.

6:45 As I had started out, you know, that was my intention. And what I learned in graduate school was there was this massive gap of technology. Technical folks who didn't have access to the skills of negotiation and influence, persuasion, advocacy. And so you'd have these amazing projects, great technical expertise, and we wouldn't have necessarily the ability to get it across the line. So I took a negotiation class my first semester in graduate school, and my professor and I are friends now, actually work with colleagues, we teach together. And so we joke a lot that that was sort of a pivotal moment for me was a fork in the road. And in graduate school, really just the negotiation piece to me was the missing layer that I think I'd been searching for in all of my past experiences.

7:34 And so I got involved in the negotiation community. I started out as a TA. I worked my way into designing a class for MIT that I now teach. I'm lead faculty on that. And getting to bring negotiation skills into that technical environment, still leverage my bilingual technical language as well as the human language, has been incredibly rewarding. And so I teach, I consult, but the negotiation piece is really where I kind of found my perfect fit. I love how you describe it as not just, I think a lot of people would hear this and be like, oh, negotiation is just getting what I want or meeting someone in the middle, right?

8:15 And I love how you reframed it as influence and advocacy, all these other things that you need to have in order to get your very technical idea across the line to maybe a community that doesn't speak the same language, right? I do love the way you frame that. I'm curious, though, you mentioned that it was extremely rewarding. What aspect of it do you find extremely rewarding? Of working in negotiation or teaching negotiation? Teaching it. I think the biggest thing about teaching negotiation is that I get to facilitate that mindset shift. From the idea that negotiation is adversarial or confrontational, that it's what you want and what I want, and we're going to figure out how to split it.

8:59 And if I want to do well, that means taking more from you and gaining more for myself, sort of zero-sum mindset. And the most successful negotiators are actually people who are incredibly collaborative and who engage in the conversation and find ways that they can deliver value for the other side. And for me, that's a hard, it's a hard lesson to communicate because we still, we get under pressure and we still feel like we have to protect ourselves. But when you can make that, when you can turn that corner and you can see that negotiation is not always combative, but it is figuring out how you get what you need and also help others get what they need.

9:40 Man that just opens up the possibility for great relationships and that I think is is a massive difference in our workplaces and our families and our neighborhoods yeah absolutely I I find that like it's always it's not always it's just it always ends up being for for the person who needs something from another group right let's let's keep it in the engineering realm because that's where your focus is, right, at MIT, and that's really what our listeners are probably. The backgrounds are more on the data engineering side. But I guess my thought here is that it's intriguing because when I've worked in data and analytics for a very long time, I started in engineering.

10:23 I moved across primarily because I can communicate well. So all those like soft skills, right, those leadership skills that matter, it came natural to me in a lot of ways. So I was able to take that on and move forward in my career because of that. But I do see a lot of very smart engineers out there who, if they could just tell their stories differently, if they could just communicate them differently, they would be super successful. So my question to you is really around, like, from an engineering perspective, do you find that in teaching them negotiations, they're also learning their communication skills as well or working through those? Definitely. Storytelling is a huge part of negotiation. If you think about it, if I frame something to you as, you know, you know, we have this deliverable that we need to put together? Can you work the weekend?

11:10 You know, that's very different than if I frame it to you as, hey, you know, we're really going to push hard as a team, but, you know, we're going to deliver something of really high value, you know, or that's maybe not a good example, but how you ask the question matters, right? How you present the request matters. And it's possible that you can actually create more resistance in the other party just by how you ask. So it might be that the content of what you're asking isn't the problem. It's how you're asking the question or making the request. And so I think the big shift is making sure that you understand enough about the other side to be smart in how you frame and tell stories. That's so true. That's so true. So what, I guess, what leading through that, right, what you just stated, what are some tactics for someone to get smart about the other side?

11:59 Yeah, for sure. I think the key thing is you have to prepare as much as possible. And that might be 20 minutes. It might be a conversation with someone ahead of time. It might be three minutes on the back of an envelope while you're on your way somewhere. But stopping and asking yourself what your assumptions are about the situation and about the other person. Writing down what you think they care about. Thinking about what you care about and how to frame what you care about through the lens of what they care about. But then going into that situation with an open mind, right? So having the preparation so that you have thought about it ahead of time, and that's going to help calm our sort of default reactions that might not serve us in the moment.

12:43 But then also once you get in, ask really good questions and confirm that your assumptions are true or not, that what they care about is true or not. Because I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see people make is they assume they know enough about the situation on the other side. And if that's the case, then they can really double down on their perspective or their approach and they miss all the signals from the other side that it's not working. Those are great. Those are great. Anjali, how many times do we tell people to just use their assumptions and put them aside for a minute and just affirm or reaffirm, like make sure that those are accurate before you lean into something?

13:25 Exactly. I mean, there's a great analogy, you know, what does, you know, assumption really stand for, right? And, you know, kind of putting those aside. But then also one of the things that, you know, I've worked with organizations to try to coach, you know, coach like our business versus the technical folks into, you know, going into healthy conversations is thinking about what is relevant to the other, you know, to the other party, and what they would also like to get out of the negotiation. So one of the things that I had been taught, you know, just kind of coming through my career has been the concept of give to get and, you know, be prepared to let go of some of the things that you believe you need in order to get to get to an agreement with with whoever you're negotiating with.

14:13 Is that a principle that that you also subscribe to? Are there different thoughts around that practice? Yeah, so I think there's a couple of different ways to interpret what you're talking about there. The first thing I thought you might be highlighting as you talked about this idea of give to get is the idea of reciprocity. And that absolutely holds up. If I come at you with a bad attitude, I'm gonna get a bad attitude back. If I come at you generously, and that might just be in sharing information or being willing to listen, then I'm more likely to see those kinds of behaviors back towards me. Robert Cialdini does some amazing research on reciprocity and has highlighted that it's almost automatic.

14:54 If I do something nice for you, you're probably going to do something nice for me. It might not be right away, but you're probably going to see a little bit of that back and forth start. So that, I would say, is absolutely solid. The idea of, you know, be willing to give up some of the things you care about in order to get what you really need, I think it depends on what you care about, right? If what you care about is, you know, speaking the most or, you know, feeling like you have the most power, yeah, you might have to sacrifice some of those things to really get into a powerful conversation. But it is possible in a lot of cases to find ways to satisfy a lot of your needs and the other side's needs, which I think is a shift in how we think about negotiation.

15:38 It doesn't have to be that we're figuring out how to compromise appropriately. It's we're really trying to figure out how to collaborate. I'm wondering, like, does that answer the question? Does that? It absolutely does. Yeah. I mean, like, when we, you know, just, you know, when we've talked about give to get, it's in different fashions, right? One's from like a sales perspective, right? Like what in that contract negotiation are we willing to maybe be a little bit more flexible on than we are on paper, right? Versus that reciprocity and, you know, being generous with one another. When we're asking, like, you know, in the data governance world, half the time we're asking people to take on new or different responsibilities. So how do you then have that conversation to say, please do this in addition to the millions of other tasks on your list.

16:25 And in return, this is the benefit that we'll all receive. Yeah, for sure. And strategic concessions is a great part of negotiation strategy, figuring out what you're willing to, in your case in the contract, what are you willing to be flexible on? And that's an important part of your preparation. What I see happen sometimes is that people conflate that over to that being their primary negotiation skill. And they walk in and they say, okay, I really need these three things, but I guess I'd give up two of them in order to get the one. And that can, it can just stunt our ability to get a great deal. And the mindset shift is really moving over into a space where you can ask yourself.

17:05 How can I create more value here? How can I figure out what it is that they care about and find ways to offer them value that might be totally separate from the things that I want? And collectively, we can find the best solution instead of feeling like I have to decide which of the things on my list am I going to lose in order to get them to take on that task, right? To add that task to their list. You know, maybe they care a lot about meeting somebody that you know. Or maybe they care a lot about having flexibility on a meeting schedule. And that doesn't have to cost you anything, but it could create a lot of value for them. Sure. I love that. Yeah. I love the way you frame that because you're spot on. A lot of people lean in on, here are the three things we have to get in this negotiation.

17:47 But number one's the thing we're not going to let go of, right? And they always have one item that it's like, the line stops here. And I don't like, I personally don't feel comfortable in those situations because then it becomes a zero-sum game, I feel like, versus taking the approach of getting to understand the individual and what drives them and what they're trying to achieve. What are their goals in this conversation? And then what are my goals in this conversation? And being open up front about it, right? Like if you're open and up front about like, hey, here's what I need to do to look successful. Here's what you need to do. Let's just meet some, let's just figure out what that means, like in terms of what we're trying to do here. And I find that that approach gets me where I want. I'll get all three items usually if I don't do it that way which goes back to exactly what you're saying earlier right you're nice to them they're going to be nice to you and I find that if I'm transparent about what I want right and why I need it and and why this is going to be good for them they're transparent in in the same return in regard let's get into it though because you have you have a process it's got a few points but I was wondering if you mind sharing some of that for our listeners.

18:52 Yeah, think about negotiations. Yeah, definitely. So I think about negotiation in sort of three phases. The first is in preparation. And the second one is in the conversation itself. And you might have to iterate back and forth to those two phases. It might be more than one conversation. Preparation is really important for you to be able to frame the conversation and know what data you're going to present, know what you are really what you care about, what your walkaway is, right? What's your alternative? In the conversation, then you've got a dynamic person who's sitting across from you. So you have to be prepared to navigate that. And then the third phase is how you're going to reflect on the negotiation.

19:35 And you always want to make sure that you, after you have a negotiation, even if it's a conversation with a team member or somebody who's on a different team that you're trying to engage with on your project, after you have that conversation, take 45 seconds, longer if you have it, but, and ask yourself, you know, okay, what, what worked? What helped me in that situation and what got in my way. And by just taking a minute to reflect, you're creating a space where now you can develop new skills. And without that reflection piece, it's just really hard to grow. And so three phases, prep, then in the conversation, and then in reflection.

20:15 And there are concepts that help you in all of those phases, but those are the main phases of how I think about it. Got it. Got it. And one concept I remember you sharing with us was around understanding what you're negotiating about. I think that was like one thing that really my eyes opened up because I didn't realize all the different things you have the ability to negotiate on beyond just the topic itself. I think we all just focus on, I'm negotiating, like, for example, a contract. But you kind of opened up the frame there a little bit and said, hey, look, you're not just negotiating your contract. You're actually negotiating a lot of things that lead up to that final negotiation.

20:59 Can you share some of that for us? Because I personally got so much out of that part. And I think it's important for our listeners to hear this. Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I learned as I was studying negotiation was that you have a negotiation on the content of the deal. This is, you know, the terms that are going to go into your contract or it's the timeline on your project. It's the actual content of it. But then you also are negotiating on the process. How are you engaging in this conversation? How are we going to figure this out? Are we going to collaborate? Are we going to test some things or is it someone's going to make a decision? And then you also have the relationship. And that's the previous relationship you have with that person or the future relationship you have with that person.

21:44 And the relationship is incredibly valuable. And so by thinking about those three different components of a negotiation, if you run into a barrier in one of them, you can shift and focus on something else. But you also may find out that you're going into a negotiation thinking that it's really about content. And turns out, you know, they agree with you on content. Content's probably fine, but there's some other aspect. That you really need to get into. And I've seen a lot of, of teams specifically get really blocked on how they are making decisions and how they are conducting the work much more than the work itself. Yeah. And I think that, that, that bears when you, when you shared this with us initially, it was funny because I was in the middle of a negotiation and I remember hearing you and thinking to myself, that's the barrier. It's not the what, it's the how.

22:37 We were not in sync. The person I was negotiating with was not in sync with me in terms of how we were going to progress. We were absolutely locked in in terms of what we were tackling, but how we were going to get there and how we were going to move forward was completely off the table. And we were both making assumptions. And I think that things can go sideways without even, you're thinking you're going, you're going, you're going. You're locked in. And then next thing you know, it falls off the rails because he never thought about the how. How are we going to progress this timeline or get to a decision point here? How are we going to document it? How are we going to share this information with everybody else? And that was just such a huge moment for me personally. And I've been at this for a very long time.

23:21 And for me to find a blind spot was miraculous. So I want to thank you for that. And I find that to be the case everywhere I go too. I've seen it in a few instances where people are just like, I got what I want and they go running off to the races. And it's like, you actually don't, you didn't agree on the content or how you're going to go about it or the relationship itself in terms of how you're going to progress and be there for that person. So that's incredible. What kind of blind spots do you see people have in relation to relationships? Hmm. So one thing that's helpful is you can think about it from sort of a forward-facing direction, like how are we going to find an agreement?

24:04 How am I working with this person? But you can also shift and think about negotiations from the opposite direction and think about, you know, why might they say no? Why might they dislike this? Why might they dislike me? And not to introduce, you know, negative thinking, but specifically to identify ways that we might be creating some of that resistance that we talked about. And I think one thing that I see a lot of times is that we don't recognize how good people are at sort of understanding some of the underlying relational aspects. So an example would be if I think that I could do your job better than you could do your job, that's going to come out in how we interact.

24:47 And I may never say that. I may think that I have it totally under wraps. But probably you're going to get the vibe right and it might be it might be super subtle it might it's you know not a passive aggressive comment but it's just something in how we interact with each other and so i think the thing that people miss a lot of times is how much their own internal narrative affects how they interact with other people and then that can create that kind of resistance and so they're looking at it on paper and they're like everything works like you know all of my prep makes sense. And what I'm asking them, you know, what I'm asking them for should be fine. And I think I'm asking them in a nice way, but there can be that blind spot of your, the internal story and how you talk to yourself is affecting others.

25:32 And then their internal story and how they're talking to themselves. And it can, can really, you can kind of resonate with each other and create sort of a negative feedback loop with that. Yeah, no, I love that because you're totally right. You think you have a great poker face, but that dialogue and the real thoughts and emotions that you bring to the table are there and they're probably resonant even if they're not coming out of your mouth or they're not in the paper and they're not in the way you're framing it. Oftentimes, somebody else can read through that in terms of where you really are sitting in that relationship. So I once had a mentor say, your nonverbals are screaming loud and clear.

26:12 I'm like, well, there you go. I guess it's true. Yes, for sure. I had an employee of mine point out to me one time that I use the word interesting, but interesting never means interesting. Interesting means I completely disagree with you. And I didn't recognize that about myself. And it wasn't until somebody pointed out to me that I realized, man, I thought I had that like totally poker faced. And they were like, no, we can totally tell when you completely disagree. Yeah, I don't hide it. I know that about myself. It took me a long time to learn that you're never going to hide this, Sandy. Like I am a very like plain vanilla. If I'm excited, you'll see it. If I'm annoyed, you'll see it. If I like it's horrible. but also it's good to know that about myself because then I know that in this situation, I probably need to have somebody else in that meeting to kind of catch me.

27:03 If I start looking annoyed, they can pick it up, right? I always need to have a secondary in the room almost at times and I've learned that about myself. So I think there's a lot of knowledge that comes in knowing your own being and how you're going to show up into these spaces. It's also, I like how you stated that, you know, how you're meeting the other person. Because there are some, even on the other side of it, like as a woman in tech, bring this in, right? As a woman in tech, sometimes there's challenges just by being a woman that come to pass in some senior negotiations sometimes. And I've learned to like, let that go and just, hey, this is how it's going to be.

27:48 I'm just going to go grab the next male counterpart that I have and have them negotiate on our behalf because obviously this isn't going to work and just move on. And it's happened sometimes and I don't love it, but it's out of my hands sometimes and you just have to move on with that. But other times there's just ways to deal with it. But yeah, I think there's a lot there too that goes instead. I guess one question I have for you, because again, we're talking, our listeners, a good amount of them are very technical in nature. What is one common mistake you've seen highly technical people make when negotiating and how can they avoid it? Yeah, for sure. We've already talked a little bit about assumptions. And I think that's definitely something that I see, making assumptions about the other side, making the assumption that your data speaks for itself, right?

28:36 Those things I definitely see a lot. And we've talked about that a little bit. I think the other thing that I see is that it seems like with technical folks, I see a lot of people who agree to deals that are good enough, but they leave value on the table. And that's kind of negotiation language. So let's talk about it more concretely. But it might be that the arrangements for a project, the timeline, the contract, the expectations, the resources you have available is good enough, but there's a better arrangement out there. and it just takes time to find it. And willingness to hold an agreement lightly.

29:18 So talk about it, come up with a solution, and then say, okay, that's one option. Let's put that aside for just a second and think about if there's another way we could approach this, another way to use resources, another way to think about the sequencing of the timeline. And there's a lot of reasons why I see people fall into that challenge. The first is that it's very hard once you get an agreement. It's very hard to step back from it, right? because negotiation can be anxiety producing. Most people want it to be over. And so if they get to something that's good enough, they might say yes to that. And the other thing is, you know, it's difficult sometimes to see things more than one way. And so being willing to take a second look.

29:59 I think the thing that helps with that is recognizing that the first agreement doesn't have to go away just because you talk about a second one. It's still there as a great fallback. And if in five minutes you haven't come up with something else it's okay to go back to that you know or longer if you have more time but the willingness to do another round of iteration is something that i i see people do really well in their technical work but then they don't bring that over into the negotiation side i i like that i agree i haven't seen anything because i've seen it a few times especially when we're talking about like design principle, design conversations, design decisions, especially like even if it's like a specific facility that we're trying to build or the overarching architecture of a platform for a client, there are times where our team will be like, well, okay, they agreed to this, so that's what we're going to go do and hold on to that instead of just letting that simmer a little bit and then revisiting it one more time just to make sure that we're absolutely certain that perhaps, I mean, perhaps that's the overarching vision.

31:07 And maybe there's a few options within that vision and giving ourselves some room to explore those options at a later date don't always materialize. Yeah. And the willingness to pause and come back to a conversation a second time or a third time. Everybody is busy and that can be, it can be hard when you're busy, but being willing to step away and come back, you just, you always see something new. Yeah. I mean, I think I've been guilty, you know, kind of trying to end a kind of a revisiting of a decision at times. It's like, we're already decided what we're doing. Why are we changing it? Why are we talking about it again? Let's just move forward. Whereas, you know, if you do take that moment to reflect and say, you know, did we miss something or, you know, can we think about it a little bit differently?

31:54 We have come to a better outcome or a better answer. So I think it's that gentle reminder. You know, I think the outcome is always intended to be the same, but there's different paths to get there. It's something that I have to continue to remind myself to kind of take a moment and think about it as well. Yeah. And we're not proposing that everything is open for re-litigation all the time, right? Sometimes you got to make a plan, you got to execute on it. But while you're in that early stage, when you're defining things, or if you're, you know, take a pause to revisit some, you know, a particular direction, being willing to go the extra five minutes or to take a break and come back to it and look at it with fresh eyes, sleep on it, you know, before you agree to a particular direction or process or design specs, right?

32:39 Those things just can be really valuable. And I think a lot of times people's, whether it's anxiety or, or just, you know, the, you get a little bit deep into the solution, it can be hard to see that there are other options that might be higher value. Yeah, absolutely. Or even like time has passed, you're down, down a road and you have new information that kind of changes the decision making. It's big. And even like with a case, like a litigation that happens, right? Somebody goes to jail and then there's new evidence. They want to relitigate it because there's new evidence. Maybe this person's actually not guilty, right? So I look at it the same way when it comes to projects and programs.

33:20 You've gone down a path and maybe the team learns new information, gathers new data, and it should drastically change the outcome in terms of how you approach it, it's worth having that conversation. And I've seen teams just bury themselves. And we made this call. We were the ones that recommended it. We're just going to bury and die on this hill. And I'm just like, why? Like, why not have an honest conversation that perhaps, you know, we didn't have all the information and now we have more information and therefore we're doing the right thing by bringing this to your attention. And now it's your decision, right? Here's option A, go down the same path. Here's what we see happening and unfolding, option B, due to the new information, here's our recommendation. What do you think? Right? I don't think there's any harm in that whatsoever, but that's just me.

34:05 Yeah. Well, I mean, look at the world that we live in. I mean, I mean, how many projects have we started? And then all of a sudden, Gen.ai came in and we're like, wait a minute, we've got a new way of doing this. Hold on. Let's rethink our design. Let's rethink our approach and take advantage of the newest and latest and greatest tools that are available to us. And we've changed direction and come out with a much better outcome faster than we had intended. Absolutely. Yeah, I think even more now. Absolutely. Clients who want to build things bespoke and then an application comes on the market that does it. It's like, oh, maybe we should stop this. You could just buy a license for that. For sure. For sure.

34:49 I guess, Rachel, you mentioned that it's been rewarding. What is the most rewarding or surprising thing you've learned through teaching this topic, especially at MIT, where some of the best engineering minds come through there? Yeah, I think what I find to be most rewarding, and you have to remember, I'm an educator, I'm a teacher. So what I find most rewarding is seeing students who have amazing technical ability, you know, amazing analytical ability, develop this other muscle that just helps them go further faster. Being able to see that human layer and recognize that when someone says no to something or if they you know push them in a certain direction that those can be conversations and you can open those up and explore other paths right it doesn't have to just be no is no or a is b you know a is a excuse me a could be something else and i think that that translates so it not only works in the technical realm, but I also just absolutely moved by the number of times I hear back from my students, whether it's at MIT or within organizations, the amount that these skills help their families.

35:59 I've had people send me emails after the fact and tell me that a concept from negotiation saved their marriage, you know, or I never thought I would be able to have a conversation with my father again. And we were able to figure out the core part of this. And so I know we're keeping the conversation in the technical realm, but my encouragement to anyone who is thinking about negotiation is it affects all the areas of your life. And you'll find it come out not just in your conversations with your teams at work, but in other realms as well. But would you say the term negotiation is a wrong term in that respect? Isn't it just collaborative decision making or I guess like, is there another term for this? Like, is that outdated?

36:46 Well, it depends on what your definition of negotiation is. If your definition of negotiation is, you know, this is where we wear our like 90s style suits and we walk into a conference room with a pad folio, right? Then sure, you know, you're not doing that at your kitchen table. But negotiation, if we use my definition and the definition of many of my colleagues, it's any interaction you have with another person or other people where you have a particular outcome you're trying to achieve. So that could be figuring out how to communicate better about your family's schedule. That could also be figuring out how a team is going to tackle, you know, a particularly challenging design request from a client.

37:29 And I think that if we open up the definition to something closer to that, then we see that every time you interact with other people, you have the opportunity to negotiate. And it's, again, not coming from that place of, I have a goal here and I'm wanting to win, but how do we collectively in our interaction create the most value? And if you think about it that way, then all of a sudden you negotiate all day, every day. And I think that's encouraging because it reduces the pressure, right? You don't have to own the 90s style suit to be a good negotiator. But also it reminds us that when we're not tuned in and we're not listening to this, we're just, we're missing opportunities.

38:09 It's funny. I know Anjali where you're about to say, but I'll go before you. It's interesting because my, my five-year-old niece already knows how to negotiate. She knows how to negotiate and she's better at me than I am. Like she's at it every single time because she, she knows the relationship. She knows the how she already has the content. Like she's figuring out the assumptions are wrong half the time. Like she's got it. Like it is, it blows my mind. And Anjali, you have a small child at home. I'm sure you're constantly negotiating with her as well. Constantly. I mean, I'm literally negotiating from the minute she wakes. Well, I try to wake her up to the minute I try to convince her that it's time to go to sleep.

38:51 You know, it's literally one negotiation after another. And to your point, Sandy, like they know all the assumptions. They know where my thinking is flawed compared to their own. They know exactly what they want the outcome to be and things that are important to me like a clean house and a well-rested child you know how to get around that those are crazy goals by the way crazy tell me about it tell me about it i spent six years learning how wrong i am on those things well and i think this raises a really important question right which is why do we lose that. Kids are amazing negotiators and you watch them and you would probably be able to rattle these off even quicker than I can, but they are persistent.

39:37 They are not concerned about the impact of their reputation. They are willing to ask a third and fourth time for something or about something and they are quick to like see opportunities and then use that as another way to, you know, reframe. And I'm sure there's a million other things on the list, right? Those are just the ones that come to mind. But, you know, why do we lose those things? And what's the value of getting them back? The reason why I brought it up is because there was something you said earlier about the students realizing that a no is never really a no. There's something behind that no. And my niece does that really well. If I say no, or I see her dad say no, or her mom say no, or any grandparent never says no, but in case they do, she always asks why.

40:27 Like, what did I miss? Like, she's trying to figure out, okay, I got that reaction. I'm trying to understand, like, why I got that reaction. It's that curiosity, right? Mindset. And there's a lot to learn in that. Kind of like, don't take a no for an answer. Find out what's behind that no and be curious in that conversation, in that negotiation. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think a guiding principle of mine is, you know, and this is not the most eloquent thing, but the way I think about it is most problems are solvable. And the ones that aren't solvable, that's okay. You know, you have to explore that if something feels unsolvable to begin with, you maybe don't know enough yet. You need to ask some more questions and learn more.

41:15 You need to be willing to go another round, right, of that creative iteration we talked about. You need to be willing to take their perspective and see if you can figure out how to reduce resistance. And if you do all of those things and you find out that the problem is still not solvable, don't stay awake at night thinking about it. You know, it's okay to walk away and you should know when you should walk away. But that idea that most, man, most things are solvable or at least, you know, worth the attempt. Yeah. So Rachel, is that the advice when you realize that, you know, a negotiation is going badly or it's not going the way that you want it to? Is it, you know, kind of determine whether or not the problem is solvable or is there something else that our listeners should be considering when when things aren't really going the way that they were hoping they would?

42:04 Totally. I would say that the first thing is master the art of a graceful pause. For me, that usually looks like some sort of summary statements and then a good enough justification to take a minute to take a break and then be able to come back to it. It gives you a chance to refocus. It gives you know, if any emotions have gotten involved, it gives your your body time to process those things so that you can come back to the conversation in a focused way. And it also gives you the ability to reflect on whether or not this is a problem that you can solve, or maybe even more importantly, are your current ideas about how you're going to solve it, maybe any concessions also that you're making, do those align with your goals and objectives?

42:50 Because it's very easy in the moment to agree to things or compromise on things that aren't right for you. And so the graceful pause is critical. And the other thing is, is you need to get comfortable with the idea that you can't solve everything. And trying, continuously trying to solve something or compromise or make someone agree to something, whether it's a client who has unreasonable requests or a team dynamic that you're really wrestling with, you know, sometimes you have to be honest with yourself about how much you're compromising and whether or not that's a good deal or a good, you know, a good outcome. Yeah, that's great. So, Rachel, I'm very curious if our listeners or anybody listening to this podcast would be interested in working with you, learning more from you.

43:36 What other ways could they interact with you? Is it through LinkedIn? Do you have other things coming out, et cetera, that maybe they can look forward to? Yeah, for sure. So I teach at MIT, but then the majority of my time is spent with organizations. So that could look like coming out and teaching a workshop or helping consult on a particularly difficult client deal. That's where I do the best learning is out in the field working with folks, especially technical folks. And while I've been out, you know, doing that kind of work, something that I've found is that there's an interesting, a lot of interesting things to notice and to find unique ways to deal with this concept of resistance.

44:19 And so I am actually working on a book about this idea of addressing resistance and thinking about negotiation through the lens of why someone might say no. And that is a project that it's, you know, a work in progress. And I'm going to be out in the world researching and working on and formulating that for the next, for the foreseeable future. But the work is really what motivates me to work on things like that, because the more I'm with organizations and seeing what they're dealing with, the more I get to learn from them and the more that we get to really synthesize across technical organizations, especially, and really crystallize what's working. I love that. I love that you're focusing on that, on resistance, because like objection handling, right?

45:01 Like anybody who has kind of like this, nope, not going to go that way. Just stop the trains. And a lot of people just look like deers in the headlights in those situations where there is a form of resistance and you just can't get past it because you haven't, you either didn't pregame, as you said, and you want to pregame and think about what could be some of the objections that come up in this conversation and be prepared for how you're going to do it. Those parts of the conversation is critical in negotiations for sure. So I'm glad you're focused there because I think that's mostly what derails people these days, for sure. Totally agree. We can't leave an episode without me asking about AI. So over the last year, year and a half, how have you seen AI change how we negotiate?

45:49 There are a couple of things that are particularly interesting about AI in negotiation. And there's a lot of this is resources being done now. One thing that I'm seeing is that AI is being used as a tool to teach negotiation. You can negotiate with a chatbot, get some exposure to some initial concepts. You can also use chatbots for preparation. So you can leverage them to help formulate your logic, formulate your storytelling. There's a really great project out at MIT that's working specifically on that. The other thing that comes to mind for me is just the The power of AI to help us prepare and quickly gather information, pull in a bunch of somewhat synthesized ideas and use that as a way to understand an organization or an industry or a particular project direction is really powerful.

46:42 The downside of that is that something AI does really beautifully is summarize. And a lot of what is so valuable in my industry is getting the conversation to come down one or two clicks into more of what people are experiencing or what they've observed. Where does that assumption come from? What is that idea based in? And so something that AI does really well is it helps us to move quickly and to be able to work sort of at the summary level. And I think that folks who learn to leverage that really effectively will do well, especially if they pair it with continuing to build the muscle of learning how to engage deeply in what's the underlying layer.

47:25 What's the data, right? What are the things that they have to look at first to be able to understand sort of the summary of the headline? Right. I love that. I agree. Too many people stay up here. Devil's in the details. That's great. And I actually use ChatGPT to prep for meetings. There's like the first use case I started to use it for. It was absolutely the first use case. Like, let me think through, here's kind of where I'm coming from. What are my assumptions? And I'll ask it, like, drive out what you think my assumptions are. Drive out what some objections might be. Drive out. and I'll just have it like kind of put me in that different mind frame because sometimes I can't get there by myself, right?

48:08 So it's nice to have a partner in thinking through that. And obviously I don't take all of it for freedom, but it definitely helps ignite kind of that creativity that might be missing in myself. So love that. Powerful. Well, Rachel, it's been a rewarding 45 minutes. So thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I will make sure that there's links to you or your website so people can reach out to you if they want to work with you and your organization. But thank you again for sharing your knowledge with our listeners and for, you know, just being so awesome. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's always a joy and we'll get into more negotiation and maybe parenting techniques next time around.

48:49 Yeah. Sounds great. There's a book in there. That's the question with your toddler. Awesome. Awesome. You.